BREXIT - Walk Away!!

[outasite]

No HiC, we’re just sick of reading & responding to your depressingly repetitive garbage!


Shane

Here here.

[Royal]

I totally agree with ApusApus.

In fact, I thought I would use a quote from Dominic from another thread to illustrate my similar attitude to HICs challenge. Dominic seems to have got it in one:

I couldn't be bothered commenting on the majority of your post. You will find my answer in previous replies to other threads.

[Dominic]

I was more polite though.

[Dominic]

But hang on, surely this means that the title of the thread should be applied to us, the forum users? Shouldn't we just walk away from Brexit threads?

These are the facts:

1. Not one poster has changed their minds over Brexit as a result of discussions on this forum.
2. We can no longer be bothered to respond to posts stating an oposing view, as we have already responded to similar posts in the past.

So why still post about Brexit (whether for or against)? What are we trying to achieve?

Unless it is a new angle, surely all we are doing is trying to say "I told you so".

Repeatedly.

So why do new Brexit threads start? What do people hope to achieve by starting them?

[Firefly]

Discussion maybe ? or maybe not

[Royal]

Dominic,

For once I am in general agreement with you. I don’t particularly expect any Remainer to change their mind about Brexit, and clearly they shouldn’t expect me to change my mind either - no matter how many links to various opinion pieces they post. Brexit itself is no longer an issue in my opinion as the country has spoken and it’s now up to our elected representatives to carry out the democratic will of the people. Woe betide them if they ignore that decision. One day, history will vindicate Remainers or Leavers, but that day is a long way off.

As for why new threads are started - I suspect because the whole subject of Brexit, like politics generally, is dynamic. That’s why each thread is in some way related to the Brexit decision but to discuss different aspects of it - the Brexit Bill, the latest negotiations, membership of the Single Market, the Customs Union, future trade deals, what Juncker said, what Davis said, what Boris said etc etc

It gets a tad tedious, however, when the most banal threads - nothing to do whatsoever with Brexit and not even in the Politics section - are used for a little dig one way or the other.

[ApusApus]

Antio sas HiC ................ a wise man knows when to go & I think many on here have already chosen that path!


Shane

[Royal]

Yes, it's notable that many Brexiteers who were so vociferous on these threads six months to a year ago are no longer posting. Why?

You have asked this question before and been given the same answer by various others - because they feel it is pointless answering you as you ignore anything that doesn’t fit neatly into your understanding. Good news is ignored and instead your never ending list of bad news links are given. When anyone cares to open the links, they will inevitably find words like “could” which you always interpret as “will”.

Aside from the disasterous slump in Sterling, which has given rise to rampant inflation (now with increasing interest rates to temper the latter)...

That sterling is currently weak is not disputed (although this is not purely a Brexit phenomena). However, other than for expats and UK holidaymakers, it’s hardly the disaster you claim. A weak pound is very good for UK exports. As for you other piece of hyperbole - “rampant” inflation at 3%? UK inflation was 5% in 2012 but of course you will again ignore such evidence. In your world, 3% inflation is bad and due entirely to Brexit. Inflation is a sign of increasing demand which is generally a good thing if kept at a manageable level. UK monetary policy is to keep inflation at around 2%. We have the means, through interest rates to nudge inflation one way or the other - means not available to the individual Eurozone countries. The ECB monetary policy is also to keep inflation at around 2%. However despite the huge sums of €60Bn per month QE, they are failing to achieve their target of 2% which shows poor demand. In fact if it wasn’t for QE, the Eurozone economy would be suffering deflation which is considerably worse!

Perhaps Hudswell/Royal, Apus Apus and Kingfisher can explain how the Northern Ireland issue will be resolved in the event of a Hard Brexit (ie. A Walk Away)?

Two things HIC:

1. How on earth, without knowing what our future relationship with the EU will be after Brexit can we discuss what a future border will look like? Yet, perversely, the EU are refusing to discuss our future before we pay them a ransom and tell them what a future border will look like. If we achieve access to the Single Market, we will not need a border. But then we don’t yet know if we will have access to the Single Market, do we?

2. We have had an open border with Eire for many years. We wish it to continue. The EU says that they wish it to continue. Eire says they wish it to continue. If we walk away, we still do not need or wish to have a hard border. It’s the EU which may force it upon Eire as a member country in order to ‘guard’ the EU frontier.

And while you're at it, what about the increasing shortfall in EU workers - oh so necessary in the NHS, farming and hospitality sectors. Just how are you going to address this issue? Media reports suggest that the NHS is already struggling with manpower resources, both doctors and nurses. Who's going to take the place of...

How many times? Really! How many times? Immigration is not the problem. Uncontrolled immigration is the problem. If we need nurses, then we allow nurses into the UK. As you have been told before (yet funnily enough, chose to ignore) the fall in the number of nurses followed the insistence on an English Language test.

Anyway, after you've sorted out these 'starters for 10' I'll find some further Brexit issues for you to come up with clever answers to

Oh no, like others, I am weary of hearing the same old same old from you only to watch you ignore responses.

It’s like talking to a brick wall. In fact, I’ll take the wall every time...

[Royal]

Just checked the morning papers before retiring for the night. As to the cost of a BREXIT - Walk Away!!, the Guardian today gives a clue:

Did you actually read the article or did you just look at the headline and thought that it neatly fitted your viewpoint and therefore worthy of posting? If you read it, did you analyse it?

I read it and analysed it. The article states that without a deal and if we revert to WTO rules, there would be a 45% tariff on dairy products and 37% tariff on meat products from the EU which would amount to between £400-£930 extra expenditure per year.

Of course what it doesn’t say is that such tariffs will dampen if not extinguish UK demand for EU dairy and meat products. The EU would lose far more than we would in such a scenario. Instead of expensive dairy from the EU we could buy it from New Zealand. Instead of meat from the EU we could buy it from Argentina or the US or Australia.

Scare stories which give a very one sided view are not recommended, HIC.

[exodus]

Mustn't let the facts get in the way of the truth eh Royal?
I have to say all this Brexit bickering between you Brits is very entertaining, I wonder who will win?
Have nice day,
Amos.

[Royal]

Sorry, I missed it, the Good News is?

You keep missing it. Pull your head out of the sand. Wake up and smell the coffee. Whatever. It’s been posted constantly. You ignore it constantly. A pointless circular argument with you every time.

Well, every article I've see and read suggests that it is an unparalleled disaster and that UK exports have NOT benefitted in the way which might have been expected.

You’re reading the wrong articles, clearly. Try this

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mark ... urope.html

Did the EU not say all along that the UK's indebtedness to the EU must be resolved and agreed before future relationships could be established? What part of that did you not understand?

The part I did not understand, HIC is where in Article 50 does it say that? I’ll make it simple for you. It doesn’t. Not anywhere in Article 50. The EU just made it up and are insisting that it is resolved BEFORE talking about our future trading relationship which is what Article 50 clearly states we should be doing. But hey! Who cares about rules? It is not a legal requirement to discuss a “Brexit Bill” - just a means of the EU demanding money with menaces. Extortion is what they call it in most places.

Of course both the UK and Eire wish to have an open border, as it will be in the event that the UK has access to the Single Market. But if it's a "BREXIT - Walk Away" as the OP (Poppy) suggested, what then? Have you thought that through? Per the link I provided, the Irish Foreign Minister himself can't see a solution.

Tell me, please, O great sage that you are - how can you have a discussion on what any border should look like without first discussing what the Post Brexit trading agreement will be? It’s like asking for the solution to a mathematical problem when the equations are incomplete.

On the contrary, it's you missing the point. Already EU nurses have decided it's not worth the candle staying in the UK and are returning home. And nurses who might might in the past have come to make a future in the UK are now going elsewhere. Where does your supposed 'English Language test' come into it? And even if it did, the end result is the same...a huge downfall in the number of vital EU nurses and ancillary staff.

Once again, the evidence has already been presented. Once again you ignore it and ask the same old same old questions. I’m not going to humour you any longer.

Still think Brexit was a 'best thing since sliced bread' idea?

Absolutely. We need to get out - the sooner the better.

[Dominic]

Round, like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel...

[kingfisher]

Royal, thank you for an excellent post; I’m afraid that dealing with Lloyd is the nearest thing to falling victim to one of those exasperating mosquitos which ruin one’s sleep. Just as Morpheus again beckons you back, that little whine comes back. ..
Dominic, you don’t quite sound yourself; I trust they are sticking to growing only tulips up in Polemi…..

[Jimgward]

[

Of course both the UK and Eire wish to have an open border, as it will be in the event that the UK has access to the Single Market. But if it's a "BREXIT - Walk Away" as the OP (Poppy) suggested, what then? Have you thought that through? Per the link I provided, the Irish Foreign Minister himself can't see a solution.

Tell me, please, O great sage that you are - how can you have a discussion on what any border should look like without first discussing what the Post Brexit trading agreement will be? It’s like asking for the solution to a mathematical problem when the equations are incomplete.

Royal, if I was to negotiate the issue of the Irish border, then I would have a few scenarios worked out, ready for discussions with Eire and the EU. Whilst Eire is a member, they need to be comfortable with the situation....

So, I’d say to Eire, IF we have no agreement on trade, or a hard brexit, then inevitably there will need to be a hard border. 2 solutions are on the table, 1, reinstate a border between North and South and 2, treat all Irish entering the EU as having to go through customers, 1 for EU nationals, 1 for British nationals. I am sure that a hard border would be unacceptable.

IF a trading agreement is in place and Britain is part of the EU single market, then no hard borders are needed.

I am sure that Ireland would then lobby the EU for Britain to be in the single market and prevent the hard borders.

So, I am afraid your are being nieve to think that talks cant take place.... If they haven’t then we are much more stupid than I even give them that little credit for. As it’s stands, we appear to be making a complete mess of Brexit.

[Jimgym]

Round, like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel...

Exactly, which is why I am sure some of us have stopped commenting on the many Brexit related posts. All if's and maybe's with a hefty dose of opinion in there for good measure!

[Royal]

Royal, if I was to negotiate the issue of the Irish border, then I would have a few scenarios worked out, ready for discussions with Eire and the EU. Whilst Eire is a member, they need to be comfortable with the situation....

So, I’d say to Eire, IF we have no agreement on trade, or a hard brexit, then inevitably there will need to be a hard border. 2 solutions are on the table, 1, reinstate a border between North and South and 2, treat all Irish entering the EU as having to go through customers, 1 for EU nationals, 1 for British nationals. I am sure that a hard border would be unacceptable.

IF a trading agreement is in place and Britain is part of the EU single market, then no hard borders are needed.

I am sure that Ireland would then lobby the EU for Britain to be in the single market and prevent the hard borders.

So, I am afraid your are being nieve to think that talks cant take place.... If they haven’t then we are much more stupid than I even give them that little credit for. As it’s stands, we appear to be making a complete mess of Brexit.

Jim,

Listening to David Davis, Theresa May et al, the UK aspiration is clearly for a free trade deal between the UK and the EU. Such a deal will clearly obviate any requirement for nugatory planning over borders, surely? As both sides have already agreed - “Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” so why is it so hard to put the NI issue on the back burner until the future trade agreement is agreed?

The UK side has, as far as I’m aware, already put forward a solution which has been rejected by the EU negotiating team out of hand. I believe that the suggestion was similar to the current border between Norway (a non-EU country as the UK will be) and Sweden (an EU country). Norway and Sweden, much like the UK and Eire have historical links and had free movement well before the EU came into existence. The border there is well over 3 times the length of the NI/Eire border with far more crossing points. Flights and ferries between the two countries are totally free of checks and controls. As far as the road Crossing points are concerned, the border is seemingly invisible with most vehicles passing each way quite freely and only the very odd vehicle being checked for contraband/smuggling. In addition, with today’s digital age of information technology, it’s not hard to track containers from the country of export all the way to the country of import even, if considered necessary, by some form of sat-nav Customs seals. In addition, as neither Eire or the UK have signed up to Schengen, the free movement of people between NI and Eire should not prove to be a problem.

That solution required a little flexibility and positive thinking which instead has just been met with a simple “No”and a “It’s your problem, UK - you need to sort it out.” Actually, when push comes to shove, it’s not really our problem, is it? If the EU want a hard border at the frontier between the UK and Eire, they will have one, no matter what we think or want. They are simply trying, in my opinion, to make it look like the UK’s ‘fault’ if a hard border is put in place.

I am saddened by the EU attitude, which actually strengthens my resolve for Brexit, but I am most saddened by the way so many UK nationals constantly rubbish and ridicule our own negotiating team.

So much of what I read in the press and on this Forum makes the assertion that we are making a mess of the negotiations. If you really want to know what has been negotiated and what the stumbling blocks have been, I encourage you to listen to David Davis’ report to the House of Lords Select Committee. It really is enlightening, and straight from the horse mouth - not being reported on second hand by some second rate hack.

[Royal]

Round, like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel...

Exactly, which is why I am sure some of us have stopped commenting on the many Brexit related posts. All if's and maybe's with a hefty dose of opinion in there for good measure!

Jim,

I am with you on this one. I’m tired and weary of the same old questions which have been previously answered, being asked again as though for the first time, along with a litany of seemingly bad news which turn out to be the opinions of the author rather than actual news. I am also weary of the endless list of links given in support of the Remain Camp, which sadly, I take the time to read or listen to, only to have any evidence I propose in return ignored. It really does seem that we have come to the end of any meaningful discussion and I do plan to bow out shortly.

It’s just a waste of time.

[Jimgward]

Royal, we will never agree on Brexit per se..... I know I’ll never convince a leaver and wont attempt to, but like HiC, I reserve the right to comment on what I see being mistakes made that will make a leave situation worse for me and mine....

I actually work, part-time, for a Finnish company, who ask me constantly, what Brexit will mean... and I cant give anything of an answer, but almost certainly, we need to setup a UK entity to allow access to the UK market post brexit.

Brexit will make my life much more difficult and I can see no pluses at all. You will see the opposite. Neither the Twain shall meet....

[Poppy]

I would just like to thank Royal,Kingfisher, Jimgym etc for their posts.I have learnt a lot from you. As Jimgward says we will never agree with him and others who wish to remain but if you cannot debate the issues in an intelligent way, respecting others opinions then it really is a waste of time.

[Royal]

Thank you Poppy for your kind remarks. Frankly, I am totally exasperated by some of the unchallenged arguments being proposed which seem so ridiculous that none of the Brexiteers would even deem it appropriate to respond. Unfortunately no response is interpreted as irrefutable ‘evidence’ of the folly of Brexit. For example, HIC seems to believe that Brexit will stop all flights from UK to the EU in their tracks:

Lloyd. There you go again "fears of" no hard fact. Jackie

Wake-up Jackie, you live in the UK, here are some of the "facts" arising from Brexit which you must surely be aware of:

...Airline uncertainty in the event of a Hard Brexit, following which planes could be prevented from flying in and out of the UK

I and other Remainers have been telling you this would happen for the past year...but you didn't want to know.

It seems that when we become one of the ‘other’ 168 non-EU countries, which currently don’t have a problem flying in and out of the EU, we will somehow be excluded from that freedom. How ridiculous does that sound? In the same breath, we are told that EU27 are ‘united’ and that they hold all the aces. So, we will expect no Spanish support then, when they stand to ‘lose’ (according to HIC) 18,000,000 tourists annually from the UK who will not be able to fly to Spain after Brexit? What about France, Italy and indeed Cyprus who stand to lose UK tourists if the dire warnings are proven to be true? Let’s not stop there. There are 3,000,000 EU citizens living in the UK at present. It seems, if HIC is indeed right, that there will be no flights from UK to the EU after Brexit that the estimated 1,000,000 Poles living in the UK will not be able to visit their homeland any longer and because the EU is ‘united,’ Poland will not have anything to,say about that problem.

Such silliness has indeed brought me to the end of even bothering to correct some of the hyperbole being spouted.

We will see what we will see in the fullness of time...