No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?

[Jimgward]

This ‘immigration’ issue does appear to be the overriding element that led man, many people into voting brexit. Add in lies about payments, laws that were supposedly bad for us - lies from Boris about bendy-banana laws - and it’s easy to see that when the other issues are addressed for many, immigration becomes the fall-back. The reality, as has been shown, is that the EU did not impose restrictive immigration on us. The poster by Farage of lines of dark faces coming to take our jobs was a lie and frankly racist.

I can understand, to an extent the reasons some give - of sovereignty, being ruled only nay elected officials, or only looking out for ourselves.

However, do we really believe that the UK has played a better part in brining in laws for us historically? Pre-1973 worki No conditions, H&S at work and many other issues were ignored in a society where company owners were King.

[Firefly]

jeba

Your assumption is correct, when I applied it was pink, and Cyprus was not in the EU.

Jackie

[Jimgward]

Yes Jim I actually believe that even outside of the EU, the UK would have continued along a path of social improvement, improved working conditions and living conditions..it's called progress, which may not sit well with your socilist fantasy....

Fantasy is something not based on fact. Facts are, that Britain was worse off outside the EU - I posted the facts - the figures - that proved that. Now fantasy - or more easily said, assumptions, may have guessed that we would have done the same on our own, but that is an assumption - or a fantasy - however you want to believe it....

[jeba]

jeba

Your assumption is correct, when I applied it was pink, and Cyprus was not in the EU.

Jackie

Fair enough, but that´s not really the point of my posting. Are you still thinking that the EU is responsible for the UK´s immigration problem (seeing that the UK government would have been free to prohibit benefit shoppers the same way as other EU countries do)?

[Jim B]

Hudswell

As Jeba stated, Immigration rules could have been implemented by the UK but the government decided not to, no fault of the EU, just another short sighted decision by the government of the day and successive governments. All Cameron had to do was implement the rules available (same as Cyprus did) and there would be no freeloaders on the NHS, Benefits. etc. The EU is the whipping boy for the UK government's incompetence.
Jim

[Jimgward]

The socialist Eutopia is your fantasy Jim, and it ain't going to happen...perhaps a move to N Korea would interest you? The UK has gone through many changes over the years and driven change, yes even within the EU and will continue to change adapt and dare I say it thrive....despite the doom Sayers...you may be interested in this read
http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/89356/i ... revolution

I will try to get round to reading that later... however, what gives your UKIP or Tory right, (or is it BNP) - to say someone is socialist and should move to N Korea?

I think you’d be better off in Alabama with the red-necks - (look it up) and Trump with his agendas - suits your capdoffing and subservient agendas

[Jimgward]

Give it a rest, Hudswell - the ultimate hypocrite - you're the one who resorted to insult first - I gave it back.... honestly.... mirror, mirror on the wall....

[jeba]

Jeba, the UK probably has one of the "easiest" social welfare and Beneifts package in the EU, and has been a magnet for some former Eastern European Countries since restrictions were lifted, Romanian and Bulgarians fuelled a dramatic increase in that movement. Of course efforts have been made recently to make the benifits culture prevelant in some area of UK society less attractive which will impact on both British Citizens and EU citizens...

That may be so but why is it the fault of the EU that the UK doesn´t make use of the options available? No Bulgarian or Romanian with no job or resources to sustain themselves has a right to stay in the UK (or any other EU country for that matter) for more than 3 months and start claiming benefits. It´s not necessesary to cut back on benefits for British citizens just to prevent EU citizens from benefit shopping. Simply deny these benefits to those who don´t qualify for them and send them back if they can´t show proof of having resources to sustain themselves.

Another aspect is that the UK could have prevented the access of eastern European countries to the EU. But it´s democratically elected government of the time opted not to veto it (the same applies to Germany btw. which has much more problems in regard to crime due to sharing a border with them - allowing criminals to strike and retract easily behind the border where German police has problems investigating). So the claim that those decisions were lacking democratic legitimicy are unjustified.

[jeba]

the EU insists on a one cap fits all approach and in regard to issues like immigration it doesn't work,

What do you mean by a one cap fits all approach to immigration? Shouldn´t every EU member country have the right to deny benefits to immigrants who don´t qualify? What´s wrong with that? As I said before it´s not the EU´s fault if the UK opts not to take measures available to deny benefits or even residence to immigrants who don´t qualify for the right of free movement.

[Jim B]

Jeba....it's the sheer weight of the immigration flow...how many eu citizens have moved to Romania Poland or Bulgaria for example? And yes the UK has been a soft touch....and has provided social care and benefits to those it should really have sent back to their home countries...many have been...and many have returned back to the UK..

But that is not the fault or responsibility of the EU it is the fault of successive BRITISH Governments. These people arriving with no medical insurance, work contracts or funds could have been turned back at the border but for reasons only known to the UK Governments they decided to let all and sundry in without any checks. You well know in Cyprus you have to have a rental contract or show you own a property before you can get your Yellow Slip. The fault lies at the door of the UK and no one else.

Jim

[Firefly]

Hudswell

Too damn right we are !

Jackie

[jeba]

Jeba....it's the sheer weight of the immigration flow...how many eu citizens have moved to Romania Poland or Bulgaria for example? And yes the UK has been a soft touch....and has provided social care and benefits to those it should really have sent back to their home countries...many have been...and many have returned back to the UK..

You need to put the immigration flow in proportion to the size of the population a country and on that bass I´m not sure whether e. g. Cyprus doesn´t have a higher burden of immigrants. But actually that´s not my point. My point is that the EU gave the UK (as all other members) the option of protecting itself against benefit shoppers but it chose not to use them. Therefore, the argument for Brexit that the EU is responsible for the immigration problem is at the very least exaggerated.

[jeba]

Jim...how big is Cyprus? And how many EU citizens, compared to the UK come here to work....and how many actually just go under the radar and don't bother with registering...and yes un a small,country like Cyprus don't you think the regulations are actually easier to enforce

As the example of Germany shows even bigger countries can enforce anti benefit shopping measures. E. g. German customs unannouncedly raids building sites and restaurants to check whether their workers are registered and their social contributions are paid. Also, if you want to apply for benefits or use public health facilities you need proof of registration of residence. I don´t know whether the UK does the same but if not it´s their own fault - not the EU´s and therefore quite a poor argument for Brexit.

[jeba]

.yes there are measures to prevent them from climbing benefits before the 3 month period?

Why only for the first 3 months? It should be prevented after that as well, shouldn´t it?

[Jim B]

Jim...how big is Cyprus? And how many EU citizens, compared to the UK come here to work....and how many actually just go under the radar and don't bother with registering...and yes un a small,country like Cyprus don't you think the regulations are actually easier to enforce

As the example of Germany shows even bigger countries can enforce anti benefit shopping measures. E. g. German customs unannouncedly raids building sites and restaurants to check whether their workers are registered and their social contributions are paid. Also, if you want to apply for benefits or use public health facilities you need proof of registration of residence. I don´t know whether the UK does the same but if not it´s their own fault - not the EU´s and therefore quite a poor argument for Brexit.

Hudswell

Immigration does the same in Cyprus and there are big fines if you are caught employing an illegal immigrant and that goes for the ordinary householder employing one to tidy the garden. I know also that the 3 month figure you quoted is well short of the mark and you have to contribute before you qualify. You cannot blame all the shortcomings and bad decisions made by the UK government's on the EU; if other large countries in the EU can control their own borders for EU workers so can the UK; it is an island after all.
Jim

[Dominic]

Jim...how big is Cyprus? And how many EU citizens, compared to the UK come here to work....and how many actually just go under the radar and don't bother with registering...and yes un a small,country like Cyprus don't you think the regulations are actually easier to enforce?..you cannot stop an EU citizen from legally entering the country...yes there are measures to prevent them from climbing benefits before the 3 month period? But how many go imto the "black market" ? Yes, and many are actively seeking jobs, in employment and able to claim benifits,,which has put an intolerable toll on the system...The liberal left would be in absolute uproar if the UK took,an aggressive approach to immigration...oh wait it did and guess what...uncontrolled immigration whether it be from the EU or outside unsustainable,..and I am afraid the UK is full...

This is an older article from the DM in regard to,an episode of Question Time, you may remember it, I do, which I think just about sums up the situation...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -Time.html

Aren't you being a bit hypcritical? I refer to nuggets like this:

"Russian and Lithuanian cafes, Polish delicatessens and Eastern European hairdressers jostling for space alongside the town’s long-standing department store, Oldrids, are a stark reminder of the tensions that exist."

What about all the English shops in Cyprus, for instance? How on Earth can you sit as an immigrant in one country and criticise immigration into your own country?

[jeba]

I am firm advocate of controlled immigration, be it from the EU or elsewhere...Schengan is a mistake...as is free movement...sorry...but we have to regain control...

Do you agree that even if Schengen was a mistake it´s hardly a reason for Brexit - given that the UK isn´t even part of it?
Why would free movement be a problem if you enforced the limitations it´s subject to? Remember, it´s only for 3 months unless you can prove that you can sustain yourself? How will Brexit change short term stays? Would you advocate for banning tourism?

[Dominic]

Dominic....it Is the scale of the thing....and if you can't see that you are being niave at the best...Cyprus is a tourist destination and has attracted a lot of UK expats and as a percentage of the "cultural" heritage of the country I would suggest Cyprus is holding its own...wouldn't you...? Yes there is the odd "Brit" or "Russian" shop and yes bar and cafes cater for the full English...because guess what go to Spain, Portugal, France..well maybe not France...Majorca...they do the same Cater for the tourists...but in places in the UK it would be hard to distinguish between a street in Eastern Europe, and I applauded their enterprise, but the cost is that the Uk, the culture is in danger of being subsumed...in places...not everywhere...and that is what people see...and object to..and as the lady pointed out...the liberal elite...the Government...indeed anyone outside of Londoninum can't see the issue...and it's the scale Dominic...can you really not see that? And no I am not being Hypocritical because I would hate to see Cyprus subsumed by a foreign culture...British, Russian or otherwise...

So, it's ok for you to live in another country, but not for other people?

And how do you feel about places like China Town?

Cultures change all the time anyway. Britain is a nation of immigrants. It's literally in our DNA.

[Jim B]

The UK is not in the Schengen; you (and others) are blaming the EU for problems of the UK' s own making. It is patently obvious that the option of controlled immigration is available to the UK government but they decided (for one reason or another) not to use it and then blame everyone else but themselves when the populace starts complaining about the influx of foreigners. You should really be castigatigating the British Government, not the EU.
Jim

[Lofos-5]

...our ability to trade and survive as an independent country

Good luck with that after a hard Brexit... you’ll be as significant a trading partner as Liechtenstein or San Marino then