Grammer

[Dominic]

Well it wouldn't be so funny if people hadn't actually talked like that. It would make no sense then.

What I find shocking is the clips you see of chat shows from the early 70s. Feminists these days seem to have no idea what kind of crap their mothers and grand mothers had to put up with.

[Devil]

Sorry Devil, you're wrong...

Sorry, I am not wrong.

https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/201 ... njunction/

A conjunction is a word such as and, but, because, while, until, although, or if.
Conjunctions are a class of word used to link sentences, clauses, phrases, or other words.

Notice it does not say that you can conjoin or link paragraphs.

Quite frankly, it is not only bad grammar to conjoin paragraphs, it is illogical. Each paragraph should start a separate thread from the previous one. If a conjunction is deemed necessary to continue a thread, then it must be in the same paragraph. e.g.
Jimmy ate an apple.

And then he took a banana.

or:
Jimmy ate an apple and then he took a banana.

[Firefly]

Oh Norv, what have you started ?

[TLR]

When I was five years old, the headmaster told us we should never read Enid Blyton, because she started sentences with "and".
Sometimes "and" works at the beginning of a sentence, certainly not grammatical but it can add emphasis.
A little like the Latin "ecce".
I do wonder what that old headmaster thought of Shakespeare..........surely anathema to the grammar police, all those split infinitives .
Language evolves, rules are not written in stone, the point is fluency and clarity of meaning.
As long as the writer avoids the "Panda eats, shoots and leaves" pitfall, all shall be well.

[PaphosAL]

@Devil:

I am deeply suspicious of your paragraph rules. To me, regular paragraph breaks in a long post (on the same topic) make for much easier reading, would you not agree?

AL

[Devil]

@Devil:

I am deeply suspicious of your paragraph rules. To me, regular paragraph breaks in a long post (on the same topic) make for much easier reading, would you not agree?

AL

Yes, I agree to paragraph breaks but I shall never agree to starting a paragraph with a conjunction. In fact, it is senseless.

OK, I wanted to keep the thread simple, but it is slightly more complicated than a yes or no. There are three types of conjunctions. We are talking here of coordinating conjunctions, which are simply for, and, nor, but, or, yet, and so (FANBOYS) and no others. These are the type that may be used sparingly to start a sentence for a specific reason but never a paragraph. If you see a paragraph that breaks this rule, try reading it in context with the preceding paragraph without the conjunction. Does the conjunction add anything to the meaning? Of course not!

There are two other types of conjunctions, one of which may be used to start a paragraph, preferably fairly sparingly. The first of these are correlative conjunctions and always consist of two separated words or phrases, e.g., either...or; no sooner...than; the...the. The other is the subordinating conjunction, which is more complex; this joins two clauses within a sentence and cannot be used as either a sentence or paragraph break (makes no sense).

Should I ask my daughter to chip in here? She is a prof. of English language in Lausanne, teaching adults.

[josef k]

See https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/201 ... njunction/

And I shall say no more.

[Devil]

See https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/201 ... njunction/

And I shall say no more.

And nowhere in that article does it say that it is acceptable to start a paragraph with a conjunction.

A conjunction is a word such as and, but, because, while, until, although, or if.
Conjunctions are a class of word used to link sentences, clauses, phrases, or other words.

which is what I've said all along this thread

[Devil]

Perhaps you didn't read down the article Devil? I did...and I'll highlght some relevant points in blue:

So…can we start a sentence with and?

So the heart of the ban on starting a sentence with ‘and’ or ‘but’ seems to lie in the fact that they are coordinating rather than subordinating conjunctions, and as such are typically used to link elements of equal status within a sentence. The argument against using ‘and’ or ‘but’ to introduce a sentence is that such a sentence expresses an incomplete thought (or ‘fragment’) and is therefore incorrect.

Can't you read? Where have I stated that a sentence can't be started with a conjunction? Go through the thread and you will see that I've stated several times that a sentence can be started with a conjunction. What I have stated is that starting a paragraph with a conjunction is bad grammar and unnecessary.

In your two examples of a paragraph starting with 'and', remove it and you will see that it serves no purpose, the ensuing sentence being clearer without it.

[Maggie B]

I have really enjoyed this topic Norv. Thankyou.

Brian and Lloyd have 'cracked me up ' with this one.

Brian (Devil) has ALWAYS fried my brains . . . . . . .like Hannibal Lecter with his intelligence! . . . . . . . . . Respect.

Lloyd (HiC) has ALWAYS earned the same respect from me for his well balanced intelligent understanding of the Cypriot way of life (amongst other things).

I consider myself so so lucky to have met you both and thank you for your input. X

Maggie B

Lloyd. I don't understand it . . . . . .And please forgive me when I say. " I could not ever begin a sentence or paragraph with an And."

Grammar has ALWAYS been a wee bugger for me, but sometimes you have just got to 'feel it.' Whether it is right or wrong.

[Dominic]

@Devil:

I am deeply suspicious of your paragraph rules. To me, regular paragraph breaks in a long post (on the same topic) make for much easier reading, would you not agree?

AL

I completely agree.

And if you are breaking a big chunk of text to make it easier to read, then it follows that an "And" is perfectly acceptable.

But in HiC's example, I would say that most of those sentences starting with "And" could have been merged, with the substitution of a comma for a full stop.

However, as long as people can understand what you are trying to say, on a place like a forum, it doesn't matter what grammar you use. If you were having a conversation with somebody in a pub, and you kept correcting everything they said for no reason other than that you were a pedant, you would soon be the person who sat alone at the corner of the bar, talking to the potted plant on the shelf next to them.

[William Morris]

You do realise, of course, that all future posts on this forum are now going to be scrutinised for poor grammar.

I think I may have to resign.

[LouiseCastricum]

I would love members to correct the mistakes I make. As you know English is a foreign language for me and most of the time people do understand what I mean, but I'll be never too old to improve.

[Devil]

I would love members to correct the mistakes I make. As you know English is a foreign language for me and most of the time people do understand what I mean, but I'll be never too old to improve.

That which is important is that you have conveyed the message that you wanted to make. As a purist, I could make a couple of small grammatical improvements to your message but they would not improve the meaning of your post.

[Dominic]

I would love members to correct the mistakes I make. As you know English is a foreign language for me and most of the time people do understand what I mean, but I'll be never too old to improve.

That which is important is that you have conveyed the message that you wanted to make. As a purist, I could make a couple of small grammatical improvements to your message but they would not improve the meaning of your post.

All those "that"s! Should be a law against it.

[kansas]

I wasn't a particularly good student, but I do remember being taught that you never start a sentence with an 'and' or a 'but', the exception being if it's reported speech, i.e. "And another thing".....

[Devil]

All those "that"s! Should be a law against it.

I agree. Unfortunately, they are used as three different parts of speech.

[Dominic]

How about:

What's important is that you have conveyed the message you wanted to make.

[Dominic]

#DropTheMic

[jagwheels]

I started this topic with "Just an observation but I am impressed with members correct use of language on PL"

AND you guys surprised me even more with your knowledge of the English language