Jerusalem

[Devil]

I would also call Israelis who shoot and Kill unarmed people in a wheelchair with no legs Animals, spare us the moral ground lectures, the Israel army have nothing to be proud off

Good post!

Having read the last post from exodus, he seems to be suggesting that Palestinian children are animals.

The more I read, the closer I come to the conclusion that the Israeli army policy is, if in any doubt, shoot to kill and just ignore the criticism afterwards.

I appreciate that Israel come under attack, often by simple weapons such as stones (but not always), but what about the attacks on Palestinians. There is no way I can consider a proportional response to stone throwing to be sending fighter jets with missiles!

It is clear that the differing opinions on here will not change and I am aware that exodus has consciously avoided my questions about Israelis bombing schools and hospitals, shooting children on the beach, shooting Turkish aid workers and so on, other than to go back to the "we get attacked on a daily basis" argument, which is no answer to those questions, so I guess there isn't really any point continuing the thread.

I agree 100% with both posts.

[Devil]

... but when as a people, as a country, Palestine, you have been threatened, hunted, have been persecuted ..., live under a constant threat of violence from your neighbours, the Israelis, ...not just today, yesterday, but historically since 1948... where you had your own land stolen from you, wouldn't you try to defend it with every means possible, because I can guarantee this, if the Palestineans ever shows an ounce of weakness the Israeli wolves will pounce and take every advantage they can.

[WHL]

I find it interesting that people sit and judge on circumstances that they cannot possibly begin to understand....As an outsider it does indeed appear that the Isrealies have and are being unduly violent in their responses to Palestinian (and other countries in the area) provocation....but when as a people, as a country, you have been threatened, hunted, have been persecuted to near extermination, live under a constant threat of violence from your neighbours...not just today, yesterday, but historically...now you have your own land, wouldn't you defend it with every means possible, because I can guarantee this, if Isreal ever shows an ounce of weakness the wolves will pounce and take every advantage they can. And I am sorry the concept of Proportional response is a term made up to appease those that do not understand war.....you get hit...you hit back harder....and Isreal is at war.

Exterminating cripples in wheel chairs....does that remind you of anyone else?

[bromerzz]

Exterminating cripples in wheel chairs....does that remind you of anyone else?
What's Corbyn been upto then?

[Band]

now you have your own land, wouldn't you defend it with every means possible

Yes indeed, but, for Israel, this sadly seems to include stealing land from the Palestinians and building settlements on land which, under international law, is not theirs.

[Devil]

Our Sages tell us that if one uses land for one’s own purposes, although one has not actually acquired the property, it is considered an act of theft.(3) It is accepted as halachah(4), for example, that moving one’s fence even a hairsbreadth into another person’s property is an act of theft. One who does this in the land of Israel has violated an additional prohibition of hasagath gvul (border manipulation).(5)

The above is a Rabbinic interpretation of the Torah. The Hebrew words hasagath gvul literally mean illegally encroaching on one’s neighbour’s border.

There has been much disagreement whether Israel is a religious or a secular state. As the latter, it seems that land theft is acceptable, despite halachah. I wonder how Israelis can sleep with this dichotomy.

[Jimgward]

Hudswell, you never concede other than the military position states take.

All on here have accepted that Israel is threatened every day, has had to fight for its very existence and have been under terrible pressure.

However, their treatment of ordinary palestinians, including many living in Jerusalem and the West Bank, have never caused bother and want to just live peacefully, has been appalling. Many have been forcibly evicted to create settlement for Jews. Many have been moved out of areas of Jerusalem to reinforce the Israeli states position within Jerusalem.

Additionally, many of the extreme right in Israel, would bar every Arab and Christian from Israel. They are racists, sectarian and bigoted. (the extreme ones)

You surely have to concede that Israel is in the wrong over some things.

[Devil]

Probably as well as they can under the threat of constant terrorist attack...not that that would concern man t seems.

Have you never thought that if Israelis had not stolen, thieved, purloined, looted land which never belonged to them (and often the wherewithal to live with it), the Palestinians would not have been so angry? Don't suppose you have!

[exodus]

Hudswell, you never concede other than the military position states take.

All on here have accepted that Israel is threatened every day, has had to fight for its very existence and have been under terrible pressure.

However, their treatment of ordinary palestinians, including many living in Jerusalem and the West Bank, have never caused bother and want to just live peacefully, has been appalling. Many have been forcibly evicted to create settlement for Jews. Many have been moved out of areas of Jerusalem to reinforce the Israeli states position within Jerusalem.

Additionally, many of the extreme right in Israel, would bar every Arab and Christian from Israel. They are racists, sectarian and bigoted. (the extreme ones)

You surely have to concede that Israel is in the wrong over some things.

Of course there is blame on the Israeli side....and of course there are extremists amongst them, but the country is defending its right to exist...which they wouldn't if their "neighbours" had their way....I would love to see a political solution, but that will never happen until the terrorist arocities perpetuated against Isreal, supported...or at least not condoned by the Palistinian authorities stop....

You sum up things perfectly Hudswell.
In an earlier post I mentioned animals. It was not meant to say all Palestinian children are animals, nor the majority of Palestinians who actually want peace.
No, I meant the ones who attack us daily, often using children to do their dirty work for them.
I apologise for any ambiguity in my earlier post - but feelings run high when you have had close friends killed by such people.
May I wish Season's greetings to all forum members.
Thank you,
Amos.

[Dominic]

Fair comment Exodus. I took your previous post to mean you were essentially classing all Palestinians the same. Thank you for clearing that up.

Seasons Greetings to you and yours, too.

[kingfisher]

A Happy Christmas to you Amos, and to Dominic and all Forum members past and present.

Just reflecting on these lines:

“Be not too hard for life is short
And nothing is given to man.
Be not too hard when he is sold or bought,
For he must manage as best he can.
Be not too hard when he blindly dies
Fighting for things he does not own.
Be not too hard when he tells lies
Or if his heart is sometimes like a stone.
Be not too hard for soon he'll die,
Often no wiser than he began.
Be not too hard for life is short
And nothing is given to man.
And nothing is given to man.”
Written by: Christopher Logue-Donovan
Sung by Joan Baez [Joan 1967].

[Jimgward]

Seasons greetings Amos

[WHL]

Well even after Trumps bully boy threats against any country voting against the USA.......At the UN the World told Trump what they thought of his Jerusalem decision. ..The good news for Trump
bastions of tolerance and democracy! Guatemala and Honduras in Central America and the Pacific nations of Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Togo..agreed with him....."

[exodus]

Well even after Trumps bully boy threats against any country voting against the USA.......At the UN the World told Trump what they thought of his Jerusalem decision. ..The good news for Trump
bastions of tolerance and democracy! Guatemala and Honduras in Central America and the Pacific nations of Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Togo..agreed with him....."

How did the UK vote? Or did it abstain?
No prizes for guessing how Israel voted
Amos.

[WHL]

The UK voted against Trump, but im sure you already knew that.

[Dominic]

The UK voted with the rest of the world. Well, those that weren't blackmailed by the US, anyway.

[exodus]

C'est la vie.
What goes around comes around however!
Amos.

[Dominic]

So you approve of bullying and blackmail then?

[exodus]

So you approve of bullying and blackmail then?

Not by forum owners.
Amos.

[Dominic]

So you approve of bullying and blackmail then?

Not by forum owners.
Amos.

I have noticed that you often sidestep the issue or disappear when you are asked a direct question. Why is that? Are you just trolling, or is there another reason?