Trump gets tough on terrorists

[Conoflex]

The best way to defeat terrorism is to not give it a reason to start in the first place.

You maybe want to stick that in the empty philosophy section ?

[Conoflex]

Enormous dollops of hypocrisy being bandied about over torture of course.

Where specifically?

How about we start with every country in the world that condemns torture but relies on American muscle to defend their borders from countries that don't advertise the fact they torture people or ever let it be known they torture people, but stick polonium pellets up overseas dissidents jacksies when necessary ?

[Firefly]

Dominic

Honourable sentiments, how would you go about it ?

Jackie

[Dominic]

Enormous dollops of hypocrisy being bandied about over torture of course.

Where specifically?

How about we start with every country in the world that condemns torture but relies on American muscle to defend their borders from countries that don't advertise the fact they torture people or ever let it be known they torture people, but stick polonium pellets up overseas dissidents jacksies when necessary ?

I meant where in this thread. I assumed you were talking about comments made here.

[Dominic]

Dominic

Honourable sentiments, how would you go about it ?

Jackie

In many ways, rather depressingly, it would be closing the doors after the horse has bolted. We are reaping the harvest sowed by decade upon decade of Imperialism.

There was an interesting clip floating about a while ago though. It was an interview with an ex CIA lady or something, I can't remember what. She said that the problem the West had, was that it failed to recognise that the people they were fighting, saw themselves as the heroes, as portrayed in the Western film industry. To much of the world, the US is the Empire, and they are the heroes, fighting the evil oppressor. The only way to break the cycle was to get to know the people. All the drones and torture did was breed more terrorists.

If everybody took a leaf out of the bible (and possibly the Koran, but I wouldn't know) and just loved their neighbour, there would be no more wars. How you would implement such a strategy I don't know though.

[cyprusgrump]

If everybody took a leaf out of the bible (and possibly the Koran, but I wouldn't know) and just loved their neighbour, there would be no more wars. How you would implement such a strategy I don't know though.

Good luck with that...

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Clicky...

[Dominic]

The bible contains a lot of questionable content too.

However, a brief google reveals that as far as the Koran is concerned, it is more about loving Allah than your neighbours. I don't think either us are qualified to answer really though, unless you are a hidden scholar?

[Jimgward]

Well put Jackie.

Jimgward said

"Sadly the British Army too often in history and recently has let itself down"

The difference is that if one of those squaddies you hold in such contempt do/have done what you suggest they are brought to account and punished, rightly in my view, accordingly. Can you say the same re the often unidentified cowards who wear no uniforms or are members of a properly recognised Armed Force who has declared war on the UK or any other country as opposed to the murder of innocents?

I will declare my interest as a widow of a former long term serving serviceman (incidentally in Cyprus at the time of difficulties).

I also take it you have no difficulty in accepting the protection of those you hold in such contempt.

Let it be.

Rita

I do not hold British squaddies with contempt. I never said I did. I am suspicious of deeds they have been asked to commit, at times.

I also oppose all terrorism and would support rough tactics against Daesch, if we can ensure civilians are protected.

My beef is with the people who would have us commit deeds on their behalf. I'd include Blair in that, as I would Cameron. I'd also include Britain's sad involvement in WWI at the cost of so many lives. All acts of wanton destruction of poor squaddies, my relatives amongst them.

I can be dismissive of the reasons for war and oppression, rather than those who commit it, except where they've overstepped the mark, as they obviously did in some areas, such as Africa, Ireland, Cyprus and so on.

My father was actually a squaddie in WWII for all of the war and a year afterwards. He saw such horrors that he was dismayed that lessons aren't learnt.

[Dominic]

If everybody took a leaf out of the bible (and possibly the Koran, but I wouldn't know) and just loved their neighbour, there would be no more wars. How you would implement such a strategy I don't know though.

Good luck with that...

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Clicky...

Out of curiosity I did a bit more digging:

The Golden Rule is implicitly expressed in some verses of the Quran, and is explicitly declared in the sayings of Muhammad. A common transliteration is: ِAheb li akheek ma tuhibu li nafsik. This can be translated as "Wish for your brother, what you wish for yourself" or "Love for your brother what you love for yourself".

From the Quran: the first verse recommends the positive form of the rule, and the subsequent verses condemn not abiding the negative form of the Golden Rule:

"...and you should forgive And overlook: Do you not like God to forgive you? And Allah is The Merciful Forgiving."

— Quran (Surah 24, "The Light", v. 22)
"Woe to those... who, when they have to receive by measure from men, they demand exact full measure, but when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due"

— Quran (Surah 83, "The Dealers in Fraud", vv. 1–4)
"...orphans and the needy, give them something and speak kindly to them. And those who are concerned about the welfare of their own children after their death, should have fear of God [Treat other people's Orphans justly] and guide them properly."

— Quran (Surah 4, "The Women", vv. 8-9)
"O you who believe! Spend [benevolently] of the good things that you have earned... and do not even think of spending [in alms] worthless things that you yourselves would be reluctant to accept."

— Quran (Surah 2, "The Calf", v. 267)
From the hadith, the collected oral and written accounts of Muhammad and his teachings during his lifetime:

A Bedouin came to the prophet, grabbed the stirrup of his camel and said: O the messenger of God! Teach me something to go to heaven with it. Prophet said: "As you would have people do to you, do to them; and what you dislike to be done to you, don't do to them. Now let the stirrup go! [This maxim is enough for you; go and act in accordance with it!]"

— Kitab al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 146
"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself."

— An-Nawawi's Forty Hadith 13 (p. 56)[36]
"Seek for mankind that of which you are desirous for yourself, that you may be a believer."

— Sukhanan-i-Muhammad (Teheran, 1938)[37]
"That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind."[37]

"The most righteous person is the one who consents for other people what he consents for himself, and who dislikes for them what he dislikes for himself."[37]

Ali ibn Abi Talib (4th Caliph in Sunni Islam, and first Imam in Shia Islam) says:

"O' my child, make yourself the measure (for dealings) between you and others. Thus, you should desire for others what you desire for yourself and hate for others what you hate for yourself. Do not oppress as you do not like to be oppressed. Do good to others as you would like good to be done to you. Regard bad for yourself whatever you regard bad for others. Accept that (treatment) from others which you would like others to accept from you... Do not say to others what you do not like to be said to you."

— Nahjul Balaghah, Letter 31[38]

[cyprusgrump]

The bible contains a lot of questionable content too.

The difference is the the Christians have pretty much left most of that behind these days - it really is 'love they neighbour' and all that in Church...

The Quran however is considered to be THE word of the prophet and cannot be challenged in the way the bible has been.

That is why you don't find so many honour killings, stoning of raped women, chucking gays off roofs, beheadings, etc. in Christian societies...

[Dominic]

The bible contains a lot of questionable content too.

The difference is the the Christians have pretty much left most of that behind these days - it really is 'love they neighbour' and all that in Church...

The Quran however is considered to be THE word of the prophet and cannot be challenged in the way the bible has been.

That is why you don't find so many honour killings, stoning of raped women, chucking gays off roofs, beheadings, etc. in Christian societies...

Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

[cyprusgrump]

If everybody took a leaf out of the bible (and possibly the Koran, but I wouldn't know) and just loved their neighbour, there would be no more wars. How you would implement such a strategy I don't know though.

Good luck with that...

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Clicky...

Out of curiosity I did a bit more digging:

The Golden Rule is implicitly expressed in some verses of the Quran, and is explicitly declared in the sayings of Muhammad. A common transliteration is: ِAheb li akheek ma tuhibu li nafsik. This can be translated as "Wish for your brother, what you wish for yourself" or "Love for your brother what you love for yourself".

From the Quran: the first verse recommends the positive form of the rule, and the subsequent verses condemn not abiding the negative form of the Golden Rule:

"...and you should forgive And overlook: Do you not like God to forgive you? And Allah is The Merciful Forgiving."

— Quran (Surah 24, "The Light", v. 22)
"Woe to those... who, when they have to receive by measure from men, they demand exact full measure, but when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due"

— Quran (Surah 83, "The Dealers in Fraud", vv. 1–4)
"...orphans and the needy, give them something and speak kindly to them. And those who are concerned about the welfare of their own children after their death, should have fear of God [Treat other people's Orphans justly] and guide them properly."

— Quran (Surah 4, "The Women", vv. 8-9)
"O you who believe! Spend [benevolently] of the good things that you have earned... and do not even think of spending [in alms] worthless things that you yourselves would be reluctant to accept."

— Quran (Surah 2, "The Calf", v. 267)
From the hadith, the collected oral and written accounts of Muhammad and his teachings during his lifetime:

A Bedouin came to the prophet, grabbed the stirrup of his camel and said: O the messenger of God! Teach me something to go to heaven with it. Prophet said: "As you would have people do to you, do to them; and what you dislike to be done to you, don't do to them. Now let the stirrup go! [This maxim is enough for you; go and act in accordance with it!]"

— Kitab al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 146
"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself."

— An-Nawawi's Forty Hadith 13 (p. 56)[36]
"Seek for mankind that of which you are desirous for yourself, that you may be a believer."

— Sukhanan-i-Muhammad (Teheran, 1938)[37]
"That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind."[37]

"The most righteous person is the one who consents for other people what he consents for himself, and who dislikes for them what he dislikes for himself."[37]

Ali ibn Abi Talib (4th Caliph in Sunni Islam, and first Imam in Shia Islam) says:

"O' my child, make yourself the measure (for dealings) between you and others. Thus, you should desire for others what you desire for yourself and hate for others what you hate for yourself. Do not oppress as you do not like to be oppressed. Do good to others as you would like good to be done to you. Regard bad for yourself whatever you regard bad for others. Accept that (treatment) from others which you would like others to accept from you... Do not say to others what you do not like to be said to you."

— Nahjul Balaghah, Letter 31[38]

One of the problems with the Quran is abrogation...

Put simply, later verses overrule earlier verses.

So the earlier (often quoted) verses are very peaceful (hence we have this 'religion of peace' thing)...

But those verses are nullified by the much later and more violent ones...

[cyprusgrump]

The bible contains a lot of questionable content too.

The difference is the the Christians have pretty much left most of that behind these days - it really is 'love they neighbour' and all that in Church...

The Quran however is considered to be THE word of the prophet and cannot be challenged in the way the bible has been.

That is why you don't find so many honour killings, stoning of raped women, chucking gays off roofs, beheadings, etc. in Christian societies...

Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

I've highlighted the appropriate part of my sentence above for you...

Oh, and this...

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. (Learn how and when to remove these template messages)
The neutrality of this article is disputed. (July 2015)

[Dominic]

And all your links came from neutral sources?

[keving]

And all your links came from neutral sources?

... from comics

[Firefly]

Jimgward

'The same squaddies who have murdered people including people in Cyprus'. Yes it happens in all walks of life, not JUST squaddies, so why the blanket condemnation ? As for Cyprus, I may be wrong, but didn't IOKA murder two British civilian women, and British Police Officers ?

You have still not addressed my questions.

Jackie

[keving]

Looks like he is going to authorize water-boarding etc - he says fighting fire with fire against those barbaric terrorists who
behead people etc.
How refreshing! At last someone in the "west" is going to get tough against these people.
Geoff.

Well that "refreshment" did not last long!

Yesterday, as I predicted, Trump rowed back on his stupid comments regarding water boarding. Thank God for "Mad Dog" Mattis. Not as mad as Trump it would appear.

At yesterday's press conference, referring to Mattis, Trump said: “He has stated publicly that he does not necessarily believe in torture, waterboarding, or however you want to define it. I don’t necessarily agree, but I can tell you that he will override me, because I’m giving him that power.”

[cyprusgrump]

Looks like he is going to authorize water-boarding etc - he says fighting fire with fire against those barbaric terrorists who
behead people etc.
How refreshing! At last someone in the "west" is going to get tough against these people.
Geoff.

Well that "refreshment" did not last long!

Yesterday, as I predicted, Trump rowed back on his stupid comments regarding water boarding. Thank God for "Mad Dog" Mattis. Not as mad as Trump it would appear.

At yesterday's press conference, referring to Mattis, Trump said: “He has stated publicly that he does not necessarily believe in torture, waterboarding, or however you want to define it. I don’t necessarily agree, but I can tell you that he will override me, because I’m giving him that power.”

A politician learning something from an expert...?

How refreshing!

[keving]

Looks like he is going to authorize water-boarding etc - he says fighting fire with fire against those barbaric terrorists who
behead people etc.
How refreshing! At last someone in the "west" is going to get tough against these people.
Geoff.

Well that "refreshment" did not last long!

Yesterday, as I predicted, Trump rowed back on his stupid comments regarding water boarding. Thank God for "Mad Dog" Mattis. Not as mad as Trump it would appear.

At yesterday's press conference, referring to Mattis, Trump said: “He has stated publicly that he does not necessarily believe in torture, waterboarding, or however you want to define it. I don’t necessarily agree, but I can tell you that he will override me, because I’m giving him that power.”

A politician learning something from an expert...?

How refreshing!

Geoff's loss in refreshment is your gain

[Jimgward]

Jimgward

'The same squaddies who have murdered people including people in Cyprus'. Yes it happens in all walks of life, not JUST squaddies, so why the blanket condemnation ? As for Cyprus, I may be wrong, but didn't IOKA murder two British civilian women, and British Police Officers ?

You have still not addressed my questions.

Jackie

Firstly, your previous post. There were no questions for me, what I thought were statements from you. However, if I'm mistaken, then I'd say that I'd have every sympathy for Lee Rigby's family, what wouldn't I? Nowhere have I stated otherwise.

As to your points above, I exp ct police and forces employed by me and others, to behave in ways fitting their noble attire. It should be different from other walks of life. The same as I expect teachers and others in positions of authority over children, to behave with exemplary control in every way.

I am therefore entitled to condemn anyone in uniform who abuses their powers.

Whether Eoka murdered people or not, does not give any representative of me, the power to murder in my name. Defense and marshalling and proper force are what they are paid to do. In war and conflict, killing happens, but unfortunately there is far too much evidence of British personnel overstepping the mark. The vast minority, mind you, thankfully, but they are accountable.

Honours are rightly given for acts of bravery and so on. Condemnation rightly for acts of malice and murder.