Proposal to retain visa free travel to/from UK/EU

[josef k]

Yes, this is the same article. I don't want to seem like a dog with a bone, but I think the red passages support my analysis.

..and I believe it supports my analysis, in that it's not immigration per se which is the problem. It's the fact that at present, there is no control over such immigrants access to benefits, housing, schools, NHS etc which is the point that the interviewees are making.

The new proposals also support this analysis in that there is no reason for the free movement of EU nationals to be suppressed - just their access to UK benefits, housing, schools, NHS etc.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, and move on to the next can of worms.

[ApusApus]

I agree with Royal here, I don't believe the UK wants to stop Europeans visiting but rather coming over & then claiming benefits because that's the EU system! Funny though, it doesn't work like that in Cyprus!


Shane

Which would imply that it is not the EU system.

Possibly ......... or just a difference in interpretation!


Shane

[Jim B]

I think the point is is that an EU "immigrant" is entitled to the same "benefits" as a native of that country....the UK has an extremely generous benefits system....hence the desire to move there! Whilst Cyprus is less generous....

But as I keep writing and most keep ignoring the UK could have introduced the same legislation that this government is proposing but chose not to years ago.

Jim

[Royal]

Jim,

Are you suggesting that UK law can supersede EU law?

[Jim B]

I'm stating that the UK could have introduced the same immigratiopn criteria that Cyprus uses but chose not to because of cost. It is actually acceptable under EU legislation.

Jim

[Royal]

Jim,

There are not many economic migrants in Cyprus and this there is little comparison between EU migrants to the UK and to Cyprus. There are, however, many illegals here including Expats who haven't applied for residency as required.

The point, though, (once again) is that immigration is not the problem. Access to host country benefits by immigrants is the real problem. EU regulations requires member states to provide the same benefits to EU nationals living in the member state as it does to its own citizens. Not to do so is considered discriminatory. There's not a great deal of benefits available to an EU national in Cyprus, but plenty waiting for them in the UK. Where, then, do you think is the favoured place for an EU migrant to go to - Cyprus or UK?

Under EU regulations, if I go to the General Hospital here in Cyprus, I am required only to pay the same fee as a Cypriot. Now remind me - how much does a Cypriot (or any other EU national) pay for attending a hospital in the UK? Similarly, a Pole with children is able to claim £13.60 per month in child benefit in Poland, but fully entitled if working in the UK to claim £20.70 per week for the first child and £13.70 per week for each additional child regardless of whether the child resides in the UK.

I have no problem with visa free travel of EU citizens to the UK once we leave the 'club' but expect our government to issue work visas to those we need to fill vacancies and disallow benefits to everyone else.

We simply cannot afford to go on the way we have so far. It's not fair and it's not sustainable.

[Jim B]

Again the UK government can claim any monies paid like Family Credit from the claimants home country but decided not to. Other EU countries require other members to register before they are allowed to work but again they don't have to in the UK. Most of the problems are of our own making but it's easier to blame anything or anyone rather than ourselves.

Jim

[Royal]

Again the UK government can claim any monies paid like Family Credit from the claimants home country but decided not to. Other EU countries require other members to register before they are allowed to work but again they don't have to in the UK. Most of the problems are of our own making but it's easier to blame anything or anyone rather than ourselves.

Jim

Jim,

I am not aware of any mechanism or right for the UK to claim back any benefits that it pays to non British EU citizens from their respective EU governments. I'm talking about housing benefit, unemployment benefits and all social welfare benefits (child allowances etc).

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

[ApusApus]

Maybe Jim is confusing it with claiming EHIC costs back or S1 medical claims, etc?


Shane

[Jim B]

I did say Family Credits which you were referring to and also benefits like unemployment money and sick pay you have to have contributed (even you and me) for a period of at least six months before they will pay out plus it is not an open ended weekly payment as many believe. it's all there on the Government Web Site what people are entitled to. I have signed on and believe me there's no pot of gold handed over at the Benefits Office.

Jim

[Royal]

I did say Family Credits which you were referring to and also benefits like unemployment money and sick pay you have to have contributed (even you and me) for a period of at least six months before they will pay out plus it is not an open ended weekly payment as many believe. it's all there on the Government Web Site what people are entitled to. I have signed on and believe me there's no pot of gold handed over at the Benefits Office.

Jim

Jim,

No-one mentioned Family Credits, except you. In fact you seem to be answering a question which wasn't even asked (regarding qualification to claim unemployment benefit).

You originally asserted that benefits paid by the UK were repayable to the UK government by the claimants country which is clearly not the case. In fact, you will find that the UK pays £55,000,000 annually in child benefit alone to children of EU citizens who do not actually reside in the UK. Some £40,000,000 of this goes to Poland.

Nothing is paid back.

[Jim B]

It is the case that Child Benefits or Family Credit (whichever name you choose) can be claimed back by the UK Government from the claimants governments but the UK chooses not to; I've searched for the link on the programme I watched to confirm this but have not yet been able to locate it though will post it when I find it.
You appeared to be insinuating that anyone from the EU that arrives in the UK can claim benefits on arrival when clearly that is not the case.
I don't understand your complaints if someone who pays contributions in one country cannot benefit from it in another country; are you saying that you should only be able to spend your UK pension in the UK and not in Cyprus? These Polish people contribute to Child Benefits with Taxes and NI contributions so like you or me should be able to spend or send their money wherever they want

Look at Paragraph 2 and 3, it appears that these payments are down to UK rather than EU law

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... oland.html

Bed Time

Jim

[Royal]

Jim,

You pointed me to paragraphs 2 and 3.

Paragraph 6 states:

While the primary reason for moving around the EU may well be to find a job, the prospect of receiving generous benefits that can be sent home must act as an incentive, especially for workers from Europe’s poorer nations. The EU rules stipulate that “in cases where family benefits are based on employment or self-employment in both states, the state where the children reside takes precedence provided that a parent works there, otherwise the state where the highest amount is paid is responsible”.Those who say that benefits do not act as a pull factor for immigration within the EU need look no further than that.

I rest my case.

PS. My pension is NOT a benefit.

[MacManiac]

I was astonished to see on my State Pension forecast, which I received last year, that the pension is described as a "benefit". My blood pressure took a while to recover ...

[Royal]

I was astonished to see on my State Pension forecast, which I received last year, that the pension is described as a "benefit". My blood pressure took a while to recover ...

You're certainly not alone in feeling that way...

Steve Webb, the pensions minister, said that people earn their state pension throughout their working lives by paying their national insurance contributions and feel "stigmatised" by the idea they are claiming benefits.

The Department for Work and Pensions has conceded that it needs to consider the “tone and wording” it uses when discussing the state pension.

The report suggested that the department will stop referring to the state pension as a benefit in documents.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... ister.html

[Firefly]

I have complained about this directly to the Works and Pensions Dept. nothing changes, and yes my blood boils when I receive my annual letter. Maybe someone can organise and online petition to stop this demeaning reference. If I knew how, I would.

Jackie

[Poppy]

It's really not worth getting uptight about Jackie!! Look at it that a benefit is beneficial to you and that our pensions are certainly that! Personally I don't give a damn what it is classed as so long as I get it!!

[Mark]

I agree with others, the pension is an earned income, not a benefit.

[outasite]

I agree with others, the pension is an earned income, not a benefit.

Personally I couldn't care less what the politicians or civil servants call it as long as it arrives in my bank every four weeks for the rest of my life.

[Firefly]

Outasite

I wouldn't bet on it.

Jackie