96% drop in recruitment of EU nurses since BREXIT

[cyprusgrump]

I'm sure its absolutely co-incidental, and has nothing to do with the matter in hand, but has anyone noticed the amazing correlation between the drop in applications and the fact that, after a few scandals of deaths related to miscommunication between medical staff the NHS has been obliged to introduce an English language competency test as a part of their recruitment process.

I mean, I know Brexit is to blame for every potentially economically disadvantageous effect from now until the sun cools so it has nothing to do with anything, and I wouldn't presume to suggest otherwise.

Still, weird eh?

It is indeed a remarkable coincidence!

[Jimgward]

Is it just me, or are the langage skills in the article appalling? Maybe Poppy can tell us all?

from the headline “warn” instead of “warns”, to the word Amount being innaropriate, when “Number” would have suited better....
Anyway, thanks article is a “view” of two (yes two) recruitment agencies.. and concedes that others blame other factors, like brexit.... so it’s not conclusive at all...

[Poppy]

I think the problem is that the test has to be difficult. Nurses must be able to read doctors notes, write up notes and give appropriate medicines etc etc They must also be able to communicate with patients to correctly assess their needs so just a basic understanding of english is just not good enough for safety reasons. Nurses require a good standard of education anyway so I would have thought that most should be able to pass the test without too much difficulty - whether they should have to pay for the test themselves is another story - I would have thought not. If an employer( the NHS in this instance) require people to take a test then I would have thought it should be free to the applicant.

[Jimgward]

The Nursing situation in England is now worse than even thought. Announced today that there are 40,000 vacancies, with more leaving than joining for first time. Serious issue.

I’m sure Grump knows better.

[Jimgward]

The answer is in making the profession more attractive to women with families. Most nurses train, work, have a family and dont return to hospitals, because of shift patterns and child-care issues, coupled with poor pay.

When did you last see an elderly nurse working in a hospital in nursing? In Canada, most nurses retire while still in post.

The overseas contingent is because it is easy to obtain nurses from poorer English-speaking countries.

I agree, that not all nurses need degrees and they didn’t used to. Nursing assistants were also more commonplace, with at least two levels of nurses.

[Firefly]

Jim

You don't see elderly nurses, of course you don't, our backs were wrecked years ago.

They could start by not only increasing their pay, but maybe if midwives didn't have to pay to practice, quite a large amount, on an annual basis, and didn't have to pay to park at work, with a mere 1% salary increase, which real terms equates to no increase at all, things would be a little easier for them.

Nurses do not go into the profession for the salary, that's why nurse rarely go on strike, only the patients in their care would suffer. When clinics run over, which they regularly do, no nurse downs tools, and says 'I'm off', no overtime payments, only time off in lieu. As has been said, nurses should not need a degree, and unless specialising should never need one, to train.

We should never accept nurses without a full command of the English Language, that's a very dangerous situation.

It seems to me that the people who we rely on most to give us care and protection, including the emergency services and Armed Forces, are the very ones who are amongst the lowest paid in our society.

Jackie

[cyprusgrump]

I’m sure Grump knows better.

He does...

But there would be no point trying to convince you would there...?

Because you are completely set in your thoughts.

You are completely convinced (sincerely I'm sure) that 'Thatcher' is the cause of all the UK's problems - no doubt she hatched a secret plan for the Grenfell Tower block disaster before her death in 2013...

You are completely convinced (sincerely I'm sure) that the North of England would be a third world wasteland but for the generosity of the EU.

You are completely convinced (sincerely I'm sure) that everybody in the UK would be swimming in raw sewage and drinking polluted water but for the regulatory policies of the EU.

You are completely convinced (sincerely I'm sure) that the UK would be sending children up chimneys and adults would be killed in their thousands by ruthless bosses in factories but for the H & S regulations that the EU introduced.

And I'm sure that you sincerely believe that but for the EU hospital corridors would be empty of doctors and nurses and post Brexit the NHS would be on its knees...

And no logic or facts or figures will ever convince you otherwise. You will take your convictions to the grave in the same way that HiC will die believing that he never lost an argument and his son was stupid to vote Brexit - whatever happens.

So, there is little point arguing otherwise is there...?

[Dominic]

Jim

You don't see elderly nurses, of course you don't, our backs were wrecked years ago.

My sister, a former nurse who had to quit because of her back, would vouch for that.

[geoffreys]

The NHS is a money pit.
Top heavy with silly salaries for consultants/Doctors, poor salaries for the ones at the bottom doing the mucky jobs.
Back in 1947/6 when the formation of the NHS was mooted the Doctors/GPs were dead against it.
Maybe they were right.
Maybe a free market/private is the answer. Those on welfare could have their medical costs paid for by Govt. as now.
Those working could pay less N.I. (i.e. the NHS component) and take out private medical insurance.
There would, overnight. be no more "medical tourists" (saving about £4 billion!).
NHS Hospitals etc could be sold off to the private sector (BUPA etc) and the proceeds used to fund Social and mental care and pay rises for other Public Service staff such as Police/firemen.
No need to raise taxes or corporation tax.
The above are the bare bones of the idea, feel free to put some meat on the bones.
Geoff.

[Pete G]

Last year the NHS spent 70m on paracetamol made available by prescription. this is despite a packet of paracetamol being cheaper than the cost of the prescription to obtain it by the patients.

Each local authority has its own army of support staff, including government mandated Diversity Co-ordinators, Official Chaplains for each separate faith, and a fully stocked marketing department

Once a government target has been fixed and given political capital , the NHS authority is often obliged to rehire their own trained staff [which it trained], as these 'indispensibles' leave the NHS and have to be rehired as private contractors, often at 3 or 4 times their previous salary.

Despite having burgeoning staff costs from the point above the NHS, because they do no cost benefit analysis still manage to spend an additional amount of money at nearly 50% of their total staff costs in litigation. 2016 staff budget 120bn, another 56bn spent on litigation.

Both the BMA and RCN have deliberately set recruitment policies to restrict the number of trained professionals available in order to generate recruiting shortages leading to higher 'new position' salaries in order to beat the pay cap for their members [by extortion, basically]

These [and many, many other] systemic problems will not be fixed by just giving the NHS every increasing amounts of money for the civil servants to find more and more ways to squander

All of them would, however, go away if it was privatised

[Firefly]

I was forced to leave for the same reason, still the hydrocortisone injections help, thank goodness.

Jackie

[Jimgward]

I’m sure Grump knows better.

He does...

But there would be no point trying to convince you would there...?

Because you are completely set in your thoughts.

You are completely convinced (sincerely I'm sure) that 'Thatcher' is the cause of all the UK's problems - no doubt she hatched a secret plan for the Grenfell Tower block disaster before her death in 2013...

You are completely convinced (sincerely I'm sure) that the North of England would be a third world wasteland but for the generosity of the EU.

You are completely convinced (sincerely I'm sure) that everybody in the UK would be swimming in raw sewage and drinking polluted water but for the regulatory policies of the EU.

You are completely convinced (sincerely I'm sure) that the UK would be sending children up chimneys and adults would be killed in their thousands by ruthless bosses in factories but for the H & S regulations that the EU introduced.

And I'm sure that you sincerely believe that but for the EU hospital corridors would be empty of doctors and nurses and post Brexit the NHS would be on its knees...

And no logic or facts or figures will ever convince you otherwise. You will take your convictions to the grave in the same way that HiC will die believing that he never lost an argument and his son was stupid to vote Brexit - whatever happens.

So, there is little point arguing otherwise is there...?

Well, there would be, if you stuck to the point, which, in this thread, is around shortages of nurses!

As to your points,I am not totally convinced by any of the points you made - you see, that's where we differ, I have views that can cover all political spectrums, as I am not bigoted about Left or Right.... I happen to be more left than right, but acknowledge that many policies of the right have been correct!

As to the NHS, it is still the second cheapest (best value) of all major Western Health Services.....

As to Nurses, we do underpay them and undervalue them.

[Jimgward]

The NHS is a money pit.

The same NHS that is the second cheapest to run of all major Western Health Services?
Top heavy with silly salaries for consultants/Doctors, poor salaries for the ones at the bottom doing the mucky jobs.
Agree - but they would leave for elsewhere - probably your private services....
Back in 1947/6 when the formation of the NHS was mooted the Doctors/GPs were dead against it.
Maybe they were right.
Maybe a free market/private is the answer. Those on welfare could have their medical costs paid for by Govt. as now.
Even the Tories wouldn't be so blatant - even though they believe that - it would be political suicide. The vast majority of people in the UK (that place you fondly remember from eons ago) want the NHS to stay FREE at point of service and Profit-Making companies would never allow that - the poorer services, such as mental health, would never be picked up privately.
Those working could pay less N.I. (i.e. the NHS component) and take out private medical insurance.
There would, overnight. be no more "medical tourists" (saving about £4 billion!).
rubbish - evidence please....
NHS Hospitals etc could be sold off to the private sector (BUPA etc) and the proceeds used to fund Social and mental care and pay rises for other Public Service staff such as Police/firemen.
Ah, the old, lets sell all assets for a one-off jolly..... then pay for new ones the rest of our and our grandchildren's lives....
No need to raise taxes or corporation tax.
The above are the bare bones of the idea, feel free to put some meat on the bones.
It has been muted that everyone pays £30 a month social-care tax. That would, overnight, alleviate pressures on the NHS and save thousands of lives - do you know, when someone your age, spends 1 week in hospital, then they lose 8% muscle mass? The equivalent of 10 years ageing..... so I would be happy to pay and have you looked after in your home - Oops... your'e not a UK resident - sorry for getting your hopes up!
Geoff.

Jim

[Jimgward]

Pete G said "Despite having burgeoning staff costs from the point above the NHS, because they do no cost benefit analysis still manage to spend an additional amount of money at nearly 50% of their total staff costs in litigation. 2016 staff budget 120bn, another 56bn spent on litigation."

This was discussed on here before and debunked....

[geoffreys]

Something needs doing about the NHS which clearly is not now fit for purpose, and throwing money at it is not the solution.
I would prefer privatisation because this would cut out the mega-bucks salaries paid to managers, and private Companies would have (as they do now!) a fair and equitable pay grade scheme.
Nurses could be paid what they deserve for doing the mucky jobs etc.
Either it is a Public service or it isn't - in which case it would be private.
Is there another way?
Like I say - don't come on and post "pay more money". They have been paying more money and it didn't work.
If the NHS were to be privatized they salaries would be fair and would attract the required staff, Brexit ot no Brexit.
(IMO).
Geoff.

[Jimgward]

You don't seem to understand, that private is not always best. Look at Utility companies, that the UK consumer is paying massive profits to..... essentially.

Private companies can certainly help the NHS, providing specialist services they cannot, or will not do. No doubt.

However, wholesale privatisation, will only create companies who demand a profit at all costs, and they do that by driving services down or wages down. Loom at the company who took over Hitchinbrook in Cambridgeshire and made a right roaring c*** of it....

[Firefly]

Hudswell

I quite agree that there are many things obtainable on the NHS, which should never be funded by it. We could save millions overnight if we implemented sensible suggestions from the general public, but sadly no-one listens. Why they can't see the obvious solutions fail me, unless it's the managers, terrified that their jobs might go, and quite rightly in some cases.

[cyprusgrump]

Well, there would be, if you stuck to the point, which, in this thread, is around shortages of nurses!

As to your points,I am not totally convinced by any of the points you made - you see, that's where we differ, I have views that can cover all political spectrums, as I am not bigoted about Left or Right.... I happen to be more left than right, but acknowledge that many policies of the right have been correct!

Which is a Straw Man argument as i didn't mention or claim your politics were from one side or 'tother...

I merely pointed out that you had very strong views on certain subjects which you have presented on multiple occasions on this and other forums.

And you are never going to be swayed by any argument, facts, figures or any 'proof' that disagrees with you - rather like HiC.

So if you still believe that 'Thatcher' who left office in 1990 was that start of the rot (or however you phrased it) despite the multiple governments in the 27 years since there really is no point trying to engage you in discussion on any of the other subjects (like the NHS) in which you have fixed views...

...is there...?

[Jimgward]

Well, there would be, if you stuck to the point, which, in this thread, is around shortages of nurses!

As to your points,I am not totally convinced by any of the points you made - you see, that's where we differ, I have views that can cover all political spectrums, as I am not bigoted about Left or Right.... I happen to be more left than right, but acknowledge that many policies of the right have been correct!

Which is a Straw Man argument as i didn't mention or claim your politics were from one side or 'tother...

I merely pointed out that you had very strong views on certain subjects which you have presented on multiple occasions on this and other forums.

And you are never going to be swayed by any argument, facts, figures or any 'proof' that disagrees with you - rather like HiC.

So if you still believe that 'Thatcher' who left office in 1990 was that start of the rot (or however you phrased it) despite the multiple governments in the 27 years since there really is no point trying to engage you in discussion on any of the other subjects (like the NHS) in which you have fixed views...

...is there...?

I have no recollection of saying that about Thatcher at all...

As to the NHS, I work as a supplier to the NHS and Social Care. I am in Trusts, Hospitals etc all across the UK and certainly see wastage, inefficiencies and downright wrong practices. I also see almost miracles of skill and dedication and care unsurpassed almost anywhere. So I am bound to have opinions. Some negative and mostly positive. I also know, from reading and listening, what mistakes are being planned, in the name of progress. I can also compare that with public services that I dont believe should ever have been FULLY privatised. Why should French companies own most of our electricity supply? Why didn’t we invite companies to purchase 49% of utilities and allow a golden share to prevent corruption and overtly wrong profiteering. My energy contract is soon due for renewal. I was quoted a 30% increase on what I pay, which is an overpayment due to a new boiler. The reason given is a huge rise in gas prices. Yet natural gas price is at a 10 year low. Rip-off?

I see Doctors in GP practices in England counting down days to very early retirement. They started life as GPs and are now Directors of Companies, with Corporate Responsibility and paperwork coming out their ears. They are well paid and work much fewer hours, due to Tony Blair’s stupid contracts. However, they largely now hate the job and the pressures. Essentially, in England, the Primary Care service is private in all but name. Every GP is no longer an employee of the NHS.

Would I change the NHS? Absolutely. It could easily save another 20% if they adopted more efficiencies and came down hard on people who abuse the services. The average “Did not Attend” rate is 12%. Even for operations!!!!!! That means 100’s of Millions of pounds wasted a year.

However, it needs managers brought in from industry, with experience of change management.

Currently, the CEO of a Trust, has very little true power. If another Director refuses to cooperate, they can do nothing. There are many examples I could give.

So, I have no blinkers on, with that regard.

Coming back to Thatcher. She did some good things and many bad things. Only if you were a recipient of the bad, would you see, or acknowledge that. She ripped the arse out of manufacturing in the UK, putting the countries assets into the hands of the banks, finance people and making the UK totally reliant on London. The collapse in 2007 was down to us rolling over and giving in. Iceland showed the way to deal with them. How many did we raise charges against?

Now, we have a country whose GDP is very heavily weighted to finance and Brexit endangers that.

[cyprusgrump]

Well, there would be, if you stuck to the point, which, in this thread, is around shortages of nurses!

As to your points,I am not totally convinced by any of the points you made - you see, that's where we differ, I have views that can cover all political spectrums, as I am not bigoted about Left or Right.... I happen to be more left than right, but acknowledge that many policies of the right have been correct!

Which is a Straw Man argument as i didn't mention or claim your politics were from one side or 'tother...

I merely pointed out that you had very strong views on certain subjects which you have presented on multiple occasions on this and other forums.

And you are never going to be swayed by any argument, facts, figures or any 'proof' that disagrees with you - rather like HiC.

So if you still believe that 'Thatcher' who left office in 1990 was that start of the rot (or however you phrased it) despite the multiple governments in the 27 years since there really is no point trying to engage you in discussion on any of the other subjects (like the NHS) in which you have fixed views...

...is there...?

I have no recollection of saying that about Thatcher at all...

I'm sure you don't...