Another terrorist attack in London last night.

[Royal]

So you are saying every Muslim in the UK is a potential terrorist ..what utter claptrap.

No, I'm not saying that. Where did you read that? Re-read what I DID say before telling me that it's claptrap and please don't misquote me in order to suit your argument. It does not make for good debate to have to correct you each time.

I said that the Q'uran, the 'holy' book which muslims are all taught and all revere, teaches that stoning, amputation and death are all acceptable punishments to those who who not believe in the same 'holy' book or transgress their 'holy' teachings. And there are 2.7 million people in the UK being taught this.

[Royal]

The Christian Bible itself is made up of more that just the New Testament.

Now, some Christians take that too far, like Creationists, and those odd people who like getting bitten by snakes. But if you go to a Catholic mass regularly, for instance (I cannot speak for C of E masses) then you will most certainly here bits of the Old Testament preached, on occasion.

Dominic,

I do not intend to get into a theological discussion with you on an open Forum about the basics of the three monotheistic religions. Suffice to say that there is an Old Testament (OT) and a New Testament (NT). The commands and requirements of the OT were given to the Jews but all was fulfilled with the coming of Christ (the Messiah in Hebrew). The Jewish religion still follows the OT; they do not believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah and they do not follow or believe in a New Testament. Muhammad taught that the OT had been perverted by the Jews, so he amended it according to what he said God (Allah) had revealed to him, and declared himself to be the last messenger of God. As such, he declared what Allah had revealed to him through the Q'uran. Jews no longer stone people to death. Muslims do.

Christians learn lessons from the OT but guess what? We dont need to be circumcised, we don't need to follow the dress laws or the dietary laws, we don't need to follow the 10 Commandments and we do not need to keep the Sabbath holy. We follow the teachings and the commands of Christ - that's why we take His name as Christians.

When the woman was caught in adultery and the Jewish law (in the OT) required stoning to death - what did He do? He did not condemn - He forgave and told her to sin no more. When asked by a disciple how many times we should forgive He said seventy times seven - meaning limitlessly. That is the 'religion' Christians follow. However, momen caught in adultery are still being stoned to death in Muslim countries all over the world - that is the religion Muslims follow.

[Dominic]

I didn't say that Christians follow ALL of the old testament. But they certainly follow some, and they certainly have parts of the Old Testament preached to them.

And why does the Christian Bible even have The Old Testament in it then, if it is not relevant to Christians?

[WHL]

Spin it how you like, the message im getting from you.. is the Koran teaches evil, hence everyone that reads it could become a potential terrorist...

[Dominic]

Just to clarify one thing, I am not trying to suggest that Christianity preaches violence. I fully accept that aside from a paddy in a temple with some stallholders, Jesus was always dead set against it.

[Royal]

I didn't say that Christians follow ALL of the old testament. But they certainly follow some..

Examples please (keeping within the context of treatment of others)...

And why does the Christian Bible even have The Old Testament in it then, if it is not relevant to Christians?

It is relevant because from Genesis throughout the OT, there were prophesies about the coming of the Messiah (the Christ in the Greek NT).

It is relevant because there were many prophesies which have been fulfilled throughout the NT (with more to come).

It is relevant because it condemns sin but desires to save sinners.

It is relevant because it lays the foundation for Jesus to reveal the Grace of God to those who believe.

[Royal]

Spin it how you like, the message im getting from you.. is the Koran teaches evil, hence everyone that reads it could become a potential terrorist...

Spin it how you like, but the message I'm getting from you (and the politicians, the tree huggers and the apologists) is that the Islamic terrorists are not doing the will of Allah when they follow the teachings of the Q'uran. We'll keep denying the elephant in the room. If the Islamic terrorists had NOT read/been taught/believed/followed the Q'uran, would they have carried out the actions they did?

[Dominic]

We were taught in our Catholic School to obey the 10 Commandments, for one.

[Royal]

We were taught in our Catholic School to obey the 10 Commandments, for one.

So if that was the case, did you worship on the Sabbath (which as you surely know is from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday) or did you worship on a Sunday (the the first day of the week or Lord's Day in the NT)?

[Royal]

We were taught in our Catholic School to obey the 10 Commandments, for one.

The 10 Commandments were given to the Jews, not the Gentiles. Jesus gave just 2 commandments which, if followed, took the place of 9 of the 10 in that if you loved God with all you heart you would not transgress the first three OT commandments and if you loved your neighbour as yourself you would not transgress the last six. That left the Sabbath Day which I have addressed above. It was for the Jews, not Christians, not Gentiles.

[Dominic]

We were taught in our Catholic School to obey the 10 Commandments, for one.

So if that was the case, did you worship on the Sabbath (which as you surely know is from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday) or did you worship on a Sunday (the the first day of the week or Lord's Day in the NT)?

We went to church on Sunday like all our catholic friends.

Look, I am only relating to you what my actual experiences were. If you want to know why we were taught what we were taught, you would have to ask the teachers.

[Firefly]

The trouble with the Bible as I see it, is that everyone cherry picks the parts that fit in with their argument. For example The Old Testament says that if a man lay with another man, as he would with a woman, then that is an abomination. Yet we have gay vicars !

Jackie

[Dominic]

Not just the old testament!

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Corinthians 6:9–10

[PhotoLady]

And now it's quite easy to see how religion causes wars.
Even if this one is only one of words...

[Steve - SJD]

Contrast this with the Q'uran which teaches its adherents to kill the infidel, to make the whole world submit to Islam, to stone and murder apostates, to stone those caught in adultery etc etc.

Islam is clearly NOT a religion of peace. Christianity IS a religion of peace.

As far as I am aware - and am by no means conversant with the Quran - the passage often referred to doesn't say infidels it says idolators
and the context in which it was written is important. The Quran also mentions that Muslims must adhere to the laws of the land they are
living in. There are passages which directly forbid killing in the name of Islam, forbid coercion in to the faith etc etc.

The point being that whether we are discussing the Quran or the Bible there are passages that those who seek to do evil will twist
and use to justify their actions. We can be selective and spend all day picking out passages from both that hardly reflect well on
either religion but that's just giving excuses to evil people.

Around 800,000 people were slaughtered in Rwanda in 1994 by the mainly Christian Hutus, helped by the Christian church but that doesn't
mean that all Christians will act that way. The KKK mentioned earlier often used bible passages to try and justify what they were doing but
thankfully not all Christians were blamed. When President Bush was bombing Iraq & Afghanistan I believe he said that he was told to do by
God - was that therefore a religious act that all Christians should feel responsible for?

None of the above should in any way be taken as support/defence for the murderous scumbags who attack innocent people. It would be
ridiculous to suggest that there are not issues in the UK with a minority of Muslims and that certainly needs addressing. However attacking
all Muslims for the actions of the few is imo unfair, counter-productive and leads us all down a slippery slope.

As for the recent attacks in Manchester & London the condemnation from Muslim community was swift and absolute but often under reported.
I was pleased to see that 500+ Imams in the UK have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the "vile murderers" stating :
"the group aimed to broadcast the message that violent extremism was “forbidden” by Islam. If you follow this path you are stepping away
from Islam to a dark and godless place. Your views are not welcome in our mosques or in our communities. This is not a path to heaven.”

There is in my opinion only one way forward with this issue and that is to work together to root out extremist killers - we cannot do it
alone.

Cheers

Steve

[Firefly]

Oh heck Dominic, that covers about 90% of us !!

Jackie

[WHL]

Contrast this with the Q'uran which teaches its adherents to kill the infidel, to make the whole world submit to Islam, to stone and murder apostates, to stone those caught in adultery etc etc.

Islam is clearly NOT a religion of peace. Christianity IS a religion of peace.

As far as I am aware - and am by no means conversant with the Quran - the passage often referred to doesn't say infidels it says idolators
and the context in which it was written is important. The Quran also mentions that Muslims must adhere to the laws of the land they are
living in. There are passages which directly forbid killing in the name of Islam, forbid coercion in to the faith etc etc.

The point being that whether we are discussing the Quran or the Bible there are passages that those who seek to do evil will twist
and use to justify their actions. We can be selective and spend all day picking out passages from both that hardly reflect well on
either religion but that's just giving excuses to evil people.

Around 800,000 people were slaughtered in Rwanda in 1994 by the mainly Christian Hutus, helped by the Christian church but that doesn't
mean that all Christians will act that way. The KKK mentioned earlier often used bible passages to try and justify what they were doing but
thankfully not all Christians were blamed. When President Bush was bombing Iraq & Afghanistan I believe he said that he was told to do by
God - was that therefore a religious act that all Christians should feel responsible for?

None of the above should in any way be taken as support/defence for the murderous scumbags who attack innocent people. It would be
ridiculous to suggest that there are not issues in the UK with a minority of Muslims and that certainly needs addressing. However attacking
all Muslims for the actions of the few is imo unfair, counter-productive and leads us all down a slippery slope.

As for the recent attacks in Manchester & London the condemnation from Muslim community was swift and absolute but often under reported.
I was pleased to see that 500+ Imams in the UK have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the "vile murderers" stating :
"the group aimed to broadcast the message that violent extremism was “forbidden” by Islam. If you follow this path you are stepping away
from Islam to a dark and godless place. Your views are not welcome in our mosques or in our communities. This is not a path to heaven.”

There is in my opinion only one way forward with this issue and that is to work together to root out extremist killers - we cannot do it
alone.

Cheers

Steve

Great Post Steve. what Ive been trying to say...But not as good as you, putting it in print

[Royal]

As far as I am aware - and am by no means conversant with the Quran - the passage often referred to doesn't say infidels it says idolators and the context in which it was written is important.

Kafir (those who reject faith) infidel (disbeliever) idolator (those who worship 'false' gods). What's in a name Steve? I agree the context is important, so let's look at what the Q'uran actually says (teaches):

Q'uran 2:191: And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

PS Al-Fitnah in this passage is disbelief.

The Quran also mentions that Muslims must adhere to the laws of the land they are living in.

This is true for Christians and for Muslims. However, in both religions, the adherents are told that they must obey the law of the land they are living in EXCEPT when the law of the land contradicts their scripture. This is the fundamental basis of what I have been saying all along - what does Christianity teach and what does Islam teach? The Q'uran requires holy war against unbelievers. It also requires sanctions against people who transgress in certain ways. Remember Salman Rushdie? He spoke against Islam and had a sentence of death pronounced upon him. Was this following the law of the land? No - but it followed the teachings of the Q'uran which 'trumps' the law of the land. What about the Charlie Hebdo affair? Depictions of Muhammad are haram (forbidden), so when Charlie Hebdo produced a cartoon of the 'prophet' it had two terrorist attacks perpetrated against it. Was this following the law of the land? No - but it followed the teachings of the Q'uran and 12 members of staff were murdered. The list of such acts is endless. What about Christians not following the law of the land when it contradicts their scripture? Well nurses who believe that abortion is taking a life, against the teachings of Christianity will be sacked when refusing to take part. A Civil Registrar who refuses to marry two same sex people because it contradicts scripture will be sacked. There is nothing, however, in the Christian scriptures which will require the Christian to hurt, injure or kill anyone else - just the opposite in fact. We are required to love our enemies. Remember the (IMHO) blasphemous play - "Jerry Springer - The Opera"? How many non Christians were killed as a result of this blatant attack (which no theatre or media outlet would even dream of showing if it referred to muslims for fear of reprisals). None. Zippo. Zilch.

[Steve - SJD]

Kafir (those who reject faith) infidel (disbeliever) idolator (those who worship 'false' gods). What's in a name Steve? I agree the context is important, so let's look at what the Q'uran actually says (teaches):

Q'uran 2:191: And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

PS Al-Fitnah in this passage is disbelief.

You strike me as an intelligent bloke who is well educated and therefore knows that selecting one passage without regard to what
came before or after can give a different impression.

This is what the Quaran says - in context:

2:190 Fight in the way of God those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you find them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah [Persecution] is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, God is Forgiving and Merciful.
2:193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah [Persecution] and [until] worship is for God. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
2:194 [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear God and know that God is with those who fear Him.
2:195 And spend in the way of God and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, God loves the doers of good.

Reading the above would certainly give a different impression i.e. one of self defence than reading the quote in isolation.

There is nothing, however, in the Christian scriptures which will require the Christian to hurt, injure or kill anyone else - just the opposite in fact.

The Bible both Old & New Testaments certainly does contain similar statements but again it is how they are interpreted.

Cheers

Steve

[Dominic]

Oh heck Dominic, that covers about 90% of us !!

Jackie

Yeah, Hell will be crowded! Or not.