Another terrorist attack in London last night.

[cyprusgrump]

Actually I have Dominic, but it doesn't affect my previous comment. Forgiveness is not paramount in Islam, punishment is. in any case, Islams 'form' of forgiveness is conditional and/or dependent on performing the requisite punishment. This is not Holy forgiveness.

True forgiveness which can only come from God doesn't attract rewards, save that of knowing you do Gods will, nor does it demand compensations or punishments. This is not Gods will, nor His commandment. No one makes bargains with God.

No one but God has the power to forgive; performing a whole host of acts of attrition will not change that, nor will it bring true forgiveness.

The only key to forgiveness lies in Jesus Christ and Islam does not recognise Him.

Smudger (Jacs)

Slight correction to the last line of your recent post i.e. Islam does not "recognise him" (Jesus Christ) I think you will find it does. Jesus is recognised as a prophet but not the "Son of God" by Islam and his mother Mary is also referred to in the Q'oran.

Otherwise I am with you on the majority of what you say.

Rita

Muslims Believe in Jesus

The Jesus of the Quran is the same character, but not the same person. He doesn't say the same things, nor does he do much except refute Christian beliefs and affirm Muhammad's claims about himself. He is a character of convenience.

The Quran agrees with the Bible about the virgin birth of Jesus (and his return), but not his resurrection. In fact, it even denies that he was crucified, which runs counter to all historical evidence. In the Islamic version, Jesus was taken to heaven and will return to "destroy the cross" (according to the Hadith) and all religions other than Islam.

While Jesus of the New Testament says things like "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" the Quran's Jesus says "blessed was I on the day I was born" (supposedly saying this from the crib as an infant). It is an unrealistic portrait devoid of human depth.

The Quran was narrated by Muhammad and conveniently asserts his role as a prophet of Allah with mind-numbing redundancy. Any mention of previous Biblical figures, such as Moses and Jesus, is almost always within the context of association with Muhammad. These 'fellow prophets' speak superficially, making the same claim that Muhammad makes about himself and castigating anyone who doesn't believe.

The New Testament provides rich historical and biographical detail about Jesus, detailing episodes that relate kindness, compassion and profound moral character. The Quran's version of Jesus says little more than that he was Muhammad's predecessor. He offers no great life lessons and speaks in only about six places:

[Dominic]

The problem here is that we are using different definitions of the word "forgiveness". You are insisting that only Jesus has the answer. If you are that blinkered then of course no other religion will do.

Personally I think it should be left up to God to decide who is worthy.

[Rita Sherry]

Its not religion thats the problem....its people who use it for their own ends.

You beat me to it. There are two paths we can take in this life "the right path and the wrong path" and God gave us the freedom to choose. Some people find themselves on the wrong path accidentally and others as a deliberate way of life. Religion itself can never be blamed for the choices we humans make.

Rita

[smudger]

WHL - you're right.

Rita, totally correct, I'd reread my post and was going to amend it when a neighbour called round and I lost my thread to plumbing matters!

Dominic I'm not quite sure why you feel my belief in Christianity makes me blinkered, I believe in what I've been taught for several decades, not only as a practising, believing Christian but as a student of Theology. I've studied Christianity alongside Islam and I'm quoting theological facts. You have the same choice as me, to believe them or not, but I'm not the one calling you blinkered simply because you disagree with me. You are correct about God being the one to choose, and he's made it very clear in His Biblical scriptures.

[Firefly]

There is an online petition to deport the 3.000 on the watch list. It may help if those who feel strongly enough that things have gone too far, to try to stem the increase of attacks, by signing it. As I understand it, two of the three terrorists were on that list.

The silent majority have been silent for too long.

Jackie

[Dominic]

WHL - you're right.

Rita, totally correct, I'd reread my post and was going to amend it when a neighbour called round and I lost my thread to plumbing matters!

Dominic I'm not quite sure why you feel my belief in Christianity makes me blinkered, I believe in what I've been taught for several decades, not only as a practising, believing Christian but as a student of Theology. I've studied Christianity alongside Islam and I'm quoting theological facts. You have the same choice as me, to believe them or not, but I'm not the one calling you blinkered simply because you disagree with me. You are correct about God being the one to choose, and he's made it very clear in His Biblical scriptures.

I don't think A belief in Christianity makes anybody blinkered. I think your own personal interpretation does though.

I was brought up a catholic, went to catholic schools, heck, I was even an altar boy. Never, not once, did any priest ever preach that Islam wasn't a religion. We had plenty of comparative RE lessons too.

I am sure other religions can be equally clear about their own theological "facts".

My three big bugbears about Catholicism were:

Transubstantiation. I mean. Come on.
Papal Infallibility. What about all those bad Popes?
No communion if you were divorced. Not very forgiving.

But the biggest challenge my classmates and I had in RE, was an exercise in the text book. They posed the situation where there are two men. One doesn't believe in God, but leaves a good and honest life. The other does, but is nonetheless wicked. According to the Catholic dogma we were taught, the non-believer doesn't have a hope of getting into heaven, whereas the evil believer does.

Honestly. What kind of God would really be that petty?

[PhotoLady]

Oh, I'm so glad I'm a non-believer....

The only thing I believe in is that when I do eventually go - I will either end up in the ground or up in smoke. Unless the laws of the land change by then and whoever disposes of me can just put me out with the rubbish.
I'm really not fussed one way or the other.

[smudger]

"I don't think A belief in Christianity makes anybody blinkered. I think your own personal interpretation does though."

And you have a theology degree do you? Or you're an affiliated priest in the Catholic or Anglican Church? Or maybe even the Methodist Church? No, I thought not. Yet you feel able and equipped to pass a theological judgement on someone about whom you know absolutely nothing, not my religion, not my beliefs, not my life?? Beyond comprehension!!

Firstly, you know nothing whatsoever about me, just as I don't about you. Yet you have the temerity to judge me based on..............your Catholic upbringing?????? How dare you? i don't actually think your own basis for an opinion is that sound, yet it doesn't stop you criticising me on a subject you clearly know little about.

Massive assumptions here Dominic! Surprised I am. Don't think I've ever said that islam wasn't a religion, and I'd be pretty surprised if Catholicism said as much. It may not acknowledge the tenets of Islam , or the assumptions of Islam, but most certainly respects its right to exist. When were you taught that it wasn't a religion, or actually, were you really taught anything about Islam? I'd actually be staggered if you were in a Catholic upbringing. Pretty surprised if you were taught much about other religions at all. Were you ??

I'm with you on transubstantiation, never got my head around that. But then, I'm not a Catholic, so it was never really a problem for me other than a theological debate or discussion.

As I have said, I'm a lifelong, practising, believing Christian. I've studied islam and Christianity side by side, and I can assure you that my views here are not simply my own. They are the results of many years of study on the Quran. You may choose to believe what you perceive from your Catholic upbringing. My studies were much more enveloping than the Catholic Church, fortunately.

The only one here with blinkers on is you Dominic. Might I suggest some research outside of the Catholic enclave, you may be pleasantly surprised. Islam bears little resemblance to the toleration and forgiveness we are taught in Protestantism, Catholicism, Methodism...............

As I've already said, its a harsh religion, short on forgiveness and hard, very hard on retribution. And it's view on forgiveness is skewed, very skewed and bears little resemblance to what Jesus Christ preaches.

Catholicism is closer to retribution and punishment than basic Christianity.

[Dominic]

This is EXACTLY what you said:

See my post above, Islam is a regime NOT a religion.

Any true religion - and there are actually very few of them around - provides for redemption, sorrow, forgiveness and resurrection, all leading to rebirth. Islam provides for none if this, simply compliance with the dictat of the regime.

[smudger]

You're right and I stand by that, it bears little resemblance to a religion, simply a regime. Islamic forgiveness is conditional, not a given. Amazing you hone in on that! What about the rest of the post, no comments? Just point scoring??

You seriously disappoint me.

[Dominic]

You are making no sense whatsoever.

[surreyboy]

Guess you're not very keen on Catholics then Smudger? How about Jews?
I really like your 'Christian' attitude - says a lot about you!

[Dominic]

I'm not even a Catholic these days. I have no problem with the concept of Jesus and God, I just don't agree with the Catholic hierarchy, and their flexibility on sin where it concerns their own priesthood.

[smudger]

And your knowledge of religions is Surreyboy??

I respect all religions, but struggle to understand how many of them interpret Gods word. Tell me your understanding of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikh..........the list is endless. So what do you know about any of them?

For surely if you know nothing then you are not entitled to pass an opinion on any?? Or am I wrong?

[smudger]

"You are making no sense whatsoever."

Not sure why, I acknowleged that I made a mistake re Islam being a religion, it isn't, hold my hands up. So what is it I'm not making sense about??

[smudger]

How so? Bearing in mind your original post simply said 'It Is'

[surreyboy]

I was brought up in a C of E environment, although I would not claim to be particularly religious, or a 'believer' in a God. My religion is my conscience of what is right and what is wrong. I do not need to study the theological beliefs of various so-called religions to understand the 'values' of right and wrong! In my opinion, it is these 'values' which are so sadly lacking in the world today.

[Dominic]

But it is a religion. That has been my point all along. There's no point trying to discuss it with you though. I've said all I have to say on the subject.

[smudger]

Dominic, what part of "simply saying something is a religion" does not make it so don't you understand?

Conversely, what is it about Islam that makes it a religion?

[cyprusgrump]

Islam is an aggressive, warring, political ideology.
https://sites.google.com/site/islamicth ... l-ideology

Quite!