Cost of Brexit: The impact on business and the economy so far

[Jim B]

They are as directly elected as the Cabinet Members of the UK government. Also in the past there have been numerous members of UK Cabinets who were not elected. Also Commissioners are similar to UK Civil Servants who basically follow directives from the 27 Leaders of the members; they don't create policy.


Jim

[Pete G]

They are as directly elected as the Cabinet Members of the UK government. Also in the past there have been numerous members of UK Cabinets who were not elected. Also Commissioners are similar to UK Civil Servants who basically follow directives from the 27 Leaders of the members; they don't create policy.


Jim

If this is true, then under what authority did Junker forbid Member States to begin separate negotiations with the UK?

Once cabinet ministers are nominated they are still only allowed to serve if they directly action the desires of the duly elected government, and the cabinet members not in Lords are of course directly accountable to their constituency.

Commission members are only obliged to follow the instructions of the Council of Ministers in areas that are not already covered under the Lisbon Treaty. In other matters [which constitutes the majority of EU business] the Commission are responsible only to the treaty, its provisions and delegated powers it gives them are enforced by the CJEU and cannot be reversed even by a unanimous decision of the Council of Ministers. It is responsible to itself and accountable to no one when discharging treaty provisions.

You are quite right that they do not determine policy, but that policy is already thoroughly encapsulated in the Treaty, which the Commission discharge as they see fit, with no possibility of interference from anyone, including the Council of Ministers.

To suggest the EC are accountable is just another iteration of that old joke about marriage.

As the man of the house I obviously wear the trousers and make all of the important decisions. So if we are considering whether the UK should intervene in Syria, or Greece should consider reverting to the Drachma, that decision is entirely mine, my wife merely deals with all the minor decisions, like how we spend the money.

[Jim B]

Except of course the MEPs

My wife said I'm the head of the family and she's the neck (old Kazakh saying)

Jim

[Varky]

They are as directly elected as the Cabinet Members of the UK government. Also in the past there have been numerous members of UK Cabinets who were not elected. Also Commissioners are similar to UK Civil Servants who basically follow directives from the 27 Leaders of the members; they don't create policy.
Jim

Not true. Cabinet members are, in the majority directly elected from their constituencies and then appointed to the cabinet. The commissioners are usually politicians beyond their sell-by-dates and have relied on their cronies for their appointments without having any form of electoral confirmation. In fact less qualified than civil servants and, to split hairs, since when didn't these commissioners interpret policy in accordance with their own understanding?

[cyprusgrump]

...why is the EU so reluctant to let the UK go?

Where did you get that notion from? I think you'll find the EU will be taking a pretty tough stance against it's recalcitrant, petulant and name-calling club member, which has now decided it no longer wants to be part of the special trading relationship which it has been part of and benefitted from, for over 40 years.

More rhetoric - why not just answer the point I made...?

[Jim B]

Varley

OK, I'll reword it or ask you a question; did you vote Boris Johnson into the Cabinet position of Foreign Minister? I would guess not; he was placed in that position by the PM. No vote, nothing. In the EU Commissioners are proposed by the leaders of each member state and then voted on by the EU Parliament. Junker was proposed and voted on by the 27 Leaders and then approved by MEPs who we had the option to vote for.

Jim

[Royal]

...did you vote Boris Johnson into the Cabinet position of Foreign Minister? I would guess not; he was placed in that position by the PM. No vote, nothing. In the EU Commissioners are proposed by the leaders of each member state and then voted on by the EU Parliament. Junker was proposed and voted on by the 27 Leaders and then approved by MEPs who we had the option to vote for.

Jim

Boris was voted into Parliament in 2015 with over 50% of the electorate who voted in his constituency of 72,000 people choosing him as their representative. His nearest rival (Labour) received 26% of the votes in that constituency. The people voted Boris into power democratically. Subsequently, he was chosen, from a group of similarly elected representatives to be the Foreign Secretary.

That is totally different from the EU where Commissioners are appointed to their position and have no electoral mandate. That is simply not democratic. The current UK Commissioner, solely representing 64,000,0000 people on the EU Commission has not had a single vote cast for him to be where he is by the UK Electorate.

How can you possibly compare that with Government Ministers?

[Jim B]

I was comparing the systems and if you read back I also stated that s number of Cabinet Ministers have been unelected which is true. I keep saying the same thing but will say it once again. The Commissioners were not appointed, they were proposed and voted on by the European Parliament; totally different from what you are suggesting.

Jim

[Varky]

I was comparing the systems and if you read back I also stated that s number of Cabinet Ministers have been unelected which is true. I keep saying the same thing but will say it once again. The Commissioners were not appointed, they were proposed and voted on by the European Parliament; totally different from what you are suggesting.
Jim

But not voted on by the general electorate. Keep digging!

[Royal]

I was comparing the systems and if you read back I also stated that s number of Cabinet Ministers have been unelected which is true. I keep saying the same thing but will say it once again. The Commissioners were not appointed, they were proposed and voted on by the European Parliament; totally different from what you are suggesting.

Jim

Jim,

That's not quite correct. Each country nominates it's Commissioner. The President of the Eurpean Commission then proposes to the EU Parliament the portfolio he wants each Commissioner to hold. This is what the EU Parliament votes on - not the individual being appointed as a Commissioner...

[Royal]

But not voted on by the general electorate. Keep digging!

Correct, Varky.

If the Commissioners were truly representatives of the people they are supposed to represent, they should be either directly elected to the office (much like an MP, a Mayor or a MEP) or at the very least elected by the MEPs for each individual country in the European Parliament. Interestingly, if it were the latter, then as UKIP have the most MEPs representing the UK, it could well have been Nigel Farage who would have been appointed as the UK Commissioner!

Thus far, we have had failed politicians appointed to the EU Commission, none of which would have got there by direct elections. Think Neil Kinnock, Peter Mandelson, Roy Jenkins, Leon Brittan and Chris Patten...

[Jim B]

I have to tap my answers out on my mobile as my works computer keeps blocking access to Paphos Life as having Adult Content so it's difficult to answer all your points.
I thought the Tories had more MEPs. 23 to 20 but no matter. It was the UK governments that proposed the failed polititians and you could say the same about none elected cabinet members but you choose to ignore that. It is just as Democratic as the UK system where a party can get into power with 36% of the vote.

Jim

[Varky]

Keep digging Jim, Keep digging. No one is being taken in, except for your parrot (Everyone knows who he is)

[Jim B]

Keep digging Jim, Keep digging. No one is being taken in, except for your parrot (Everyone knows who he is)

Well I must say you've lost me on that one.

Jim

[cyprusgrump]

More rhetoric - why not just answer the point I made...?

I did. Despite the EU's expected expression of disappointment on the day Article 50 was declared, I don't think the EU will particularly miss the UK or be sorry to see it go. The UK has never been as spiritually committed as other EU members, which is one reason why the UK never adoted the Euro.

It's a bit like the break-up of a failing relationship...you soon get over it and move on. And if the EU is able to do a trade deal with the US as has now been mooted, that will be a compensating factor trade-wise.

So....

Why not just let the UK go and do its own thing...? If it will be so bad for the UK...?

Why the threats of punishment, divorce settlements, €50bn, etc.?

Why spend two years 'negotiating'? Why not a quick settlement, "bye - give us a call when you want to re-join"...?

And supplemental question, if we are going to 'soon get over it and move on' why the constant doom and gloom from you about future prospects for the UK...?

[Mark]

HIC.....the unelected trade spokesman in Cyprus for the EU!!

[smudger]

"The UK has never been as spiritually committed as other EU members, which is one reason why the UK never adoted the Euro."

Nooooo way Lloyd, the UK simply had more sense than to adopt a failing currency like the euro. And it's still failing!!!

Sadly, not much hope of Le Pen triumphing in France, otherwise you would see the sharpest and most decisive dumping of the euro in history. It's a failing currency Lloyd, get your head out of the sand

[Dominic]

I was comparing the systems and if you read back I also stated that s number of Cabinet Ministers have been unelected which is true. I keep saying the same thing but will say it once again. The Commissioners were not appointed, they were proposed and voted on by the European Parliament; totally different from what you are suggesting.
Jim

But not voted on by the general electorate. Keep digging!

In the UK, the policies that make up the manifestos of the major parties are decided by bodies not voted for by the general electorate. How is that any different?

[Varky]

I was comparing the systems and if you read back I also stated that s number of Cabinet Ministers have been unelected which is true. I keep saying the same thing but will say it once again. The Commissioners were not appointed, they were proposed and voted on by the European Parliament; totally different from what you are suggesting.
Jim

But not voted on by the general electorate. Keep digging!

In the UK, the policies that make up the manifestos of the major parties are decided by bodies not voted for by the general electorate. How is that any different?

And those policies included in manifestos are then voted on by the electorate in a general election to choose the ruling party of their choice. Big difference.
Nobody gets to vote on the decisions made by the EU Commission, which, in some cases, are against the wishes of the electorate of individual countries

[Dominic]

You also claimed that there was still a downward trend, stating that the peaks were lower and narrower. It is too soon to say whether the current peak was narrower but it certainly wasn't lower.

The other thread was deleted because somebody (not you or grump) got far too personal, and was then quoted and requoted. Rather than pick out all the offending references, it was easier to just zap it. The thread was not deleted due to comments on currency, so please feel free to continue the debate here.