Is Hydrogen the Answer ?

[Aargent]

Some of you may know that I am a great believer in the fact that Hydrogen Power will answer a lot of the World Climate problems.

There is a very interesting article about Hydrogen that whilst concentrating on Scotland is expandable to the whole UK given the Natural Gas infra structure down all of the North Sea and in Morecambe Bay.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-sc ... s-58249503

A lot of companies are working on, and running, Hydrogen powered Trains, Planes , Automobiles and JCB's. and spending Billions developing them, they can't all be wrong.

[Devil]

First of all, it must be said that hydrogen is NOT a fuel; it must be manufactured from a source that already exists (either by extracting the carbon out of natural gas or by electrolysis). There is therefore always an energy loss associated with this manufacturing.

What scares the pants off me is that hydrogen has two characteristics that can lead to danger. 1. it's combustible (hence explosive in a closed space) over the widest range of concentrations of any gas and 2. it's the most "searching" gas that exists and will find the smallest hole to leak through even just a few microns wide.

Where hydrogen is manufactured, the operators know exactly what the danger is and they ensure that it is minimised. Notwithstanding, there are over 10 hydrogen explosions per year in the world, some of them catastrophic. If hydrogen is piped into the private home, the owner is unlikely to be able to detect a leak which could cause an explosion. Natural gas may be considered as 10 times "safer" than hydrogen but there are still numbers of accidents each year, worldwide from natural gas. If the latter were replaced by hydrogen I would consider it normal for the number of accidents to be at least 10 times greater.

To answer the subject question, I would suggest that hydrogen is not likely to be the safest answer – in fact, if I were to live in a place where hydrogen was piped, I would not take out an insurance policy against an explosion because there is every chance that I would not survive that explosion, to cash in on the proceeds!

[Aargent]

It must be wonderful to know more about a subject than all the companies, world wide, know about Hydrogen. They admit that there are dangers and, I am sure, are working to minimise them. After all Petrol can be dangerous.

https://www.manufacturing.net/automotiv ... -race-cars

[71 Trans Am]

Alastair

You should know by now that the Weatherman is full of total Bullshit and at least 40 years behind the times - Hydrogen has been classed as a fuel for a long time now and millions have been invested in research by most major vehicle manufacturers - The Saturn five rockets used it for years to take the space shuttle into orbit as the primary fuel - But "Hydrogen is not a fuel" -- Taking any guidance from the Weatherman is like asking a Lemming for directions.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/h ... uel-basics

[Jim B]

Well I would tend to agree with Devil, you may mock him but he knows what he's talking about. I worked on several Hydrogen Plants over the years and as was said it's very volatile.
Companies have spent billions on safe storage methods because of its volatility. All the main oil companies have been working on the use of hydrogen as a general use fuel for years and still haven't achieved a satisfactory solution.

[71 Trans Am]

I didn't say it was not volatile - what i did say was the Weatherman is years behind in his ways of thinking and slow progress is being made now that something has to be done for a fuel solution - Petrol - LPG and nuclear all had major issues in the early days of their usage but all of the major issues were overcome and now that there is dedicated research into fuel cells within fuel cells and captive combustion chambers companies like RWE have ploughed Billions into research with all fuel and energy users and support research into hydrogen as a fuel for Cars Aircraft and Ships along with household heating and power generation - The old hydrogen plants are a thing of the past along with the Dinosaurs who worked there - The technology is moving faster everyday and if you blink you will miss it - And the Weatherman does not know what he is talking about on the subject believe me and if you tend to agree with him then you are a Dinosaur

[71 Trans Am]

Just in case you have never heard of RWE

https://www.rwe.com/en/our-portfolio/in ... y/hydrogen

[Jim B]

I may be a dinosaur in your opinion but I worked on Steam Reformers as shown in the RWE blurb and Hydrogen Compression as well. Electrolysers are nothing special, the company I worked for install these, not rocket science.
I did the control systems and the fire detection which was state of the art due to no visible flame to the naked eye. As I said they've looking for a storage solution for years for cars and still haven't come up with a viable, safe solution, if they had they would be using it.

[71 Trans Am]

It's like JURASSIC PARK on here

[71 Trans Am]

Jim B

As i previously said many manufacturers are are developing fuel cell within fuel cell technology the latest are Toyota and Nissan but Daimler Volvo have been at it for years and more recently as a joint venture and safe storage cells for general use are just around the corner any day now and have been trialled for quite some time and they will achieve safe storage because they now need to.

https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite ... d=49834035

[Jim B]

They've been just around the corner for the past thirty years.
I worked at ICI Runcorn where they used Electrolysers to produce Chlorine and one of the bi-products was Hydrogen, not new technology, that was over forty years ago.
Not anti Hydrogen at all, Ipersonally would love to see vehicles run off it but I don't believe the answers are around the corner, if they were the company I worked for would be building Green Hydrogen Plants all over the world, instead they're still building new Gas Plants.

[71 Trans Am]

Well Jim you may get a surprise shortly - I have had some involvement with the new way of thinking and do understand some of the basics - The new cell within cell is - A hydrogen cell within an oxygen cell ( Which is Apparently safe storage )That is allowed to leak into the oxygen when the throttle is pressed and is then pressurised by pump ( The same as a fuel injection system ) into the captive combustion chamber where it Is then ignited with a spark plug and bang it goes Producing very high or low energy depending on the mix which is governed by the throttle pedal and the exhaust product is Water - This link gives you the general idea

https://sciencing.com/happens-hydrogen- ... 15474.html

[Jim B]

I hope you're right but I'm not as optimistic in the short term as you are. Hydrogen is nasty stuff.

[Aargent]

Lots of substances are dangerous if not looked after correctly [ Ammonium Nitrate at Beirut ] and I am sure people dealing with Hydrogen will make sure all safeguards are in place for distribution and use.

I can't believe that JCB would be spending this amount of money on something that will not be safe.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-59107805

[Dominic]

So the argument for Hydrogen seems to pin on relying on Big Business to put common sense and decency before profit. Nothing could possibly go wrong there then.

[Dominic]

It's like JURASSIC PARK on here

So go join a KPOP forum then, if you want to hang out with the kids.

[Jim B]

Wasn't there a massive claims case not so long ago in the States about the petrol tank exploding after crashes on a badly designed pick up truck?
It's one thing to hold Hydrogen in a static storage facility surrounded by a fire protection system inside a bund but it's quite another to be driving it up and down a motorway.
Companies will try to get away with what they can get away with

[Devil]

Must say i have read a few posts on this and i think devil is anti hydrogen and so sees all the bad ,but , I think the Hindenburg clearly demstrate hydrogen needs to be treated with respect , booomm

No! I don't see all the bad. Quoting the Hindenburg disaster is hardly a good argument. There have been many accidents with hydrogen over the past 10 years; it's easy to see the list on WIKI. All I am saying is that hydrogen can be terribly dangerous if the right precautions are not observed. The trouble is that we do not know yet what the right precautions are, which is why there are fatal accidents throughout the world every year.

It's very easy to promote "pie in the sky" results on subjects that still require 20 or 30 years research before they can be considered safe. The prime example of this is nuclear fusion where the experts have been saying, "it will be here in 1/4 of a century", but they have been saying this – the same thing – every year for the last 75 years! We still do not have it! To get back to hydrogen, it is perfectly true that there is constant research on how to contain it and this has been going on for as long as I can remember.

What scares the pants off me is that metallurgists admit that the containment of hydrogen is extremely difficult but that the real crunch lies in the fact that most metals undergo structural changes at an atomic level when exposed to hydrogen over the long term. Yet people are proposing to simply pump hydrogen into the pipework designed for natural gas into the home for central heating in the United Kingdom. We simply do not know how safe this is, particularly if elastomer joints are used. It's not difficult to imagine a lifetime figure, with a good safety margin, after which the installation has to be replaced in every home – at whose cost?

[71 Trans Am]

As with the Hydrogen argument the Weatherman is way off track on Nuclear Fusion

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science ... sion-power

[glowred]

The biggest issue I see in this discussion is the derogatory use of the label Weatherman. Usually when a person tries to belittle an individual it is because they know that their own argument doesn't stand up

Neil