Electricity storage from PV... how Germany deals with it

[cyprusmax47]

There are recently some posts about buying or charging E-cars in the UK. I think it needs some clarification how other countries deal with it. This post is about Germany, which has a little bit more sunshine than the UK, but still only half of what we have in our sunny Cyprus. (850 kWh - 1750 kWh/y per 1 kWp installed)

It is a Google translate to avoid any misinterpretation which happened recently to one of my posts on here... anyhow I was upset and first thinking to abstain in future from doing post about renewable energy. So here we are: source stromauskunft.de



"The generation of electricity using wind and solar energy depends on the weather and not on the demand for electricity. It therefore makes sense to store electricity when there is a lot of sun and wind in order to make it available when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing.

Electricity storage systems are a key element in the success of the energy transition. Because without efficient storage technologies, the ambitious goals of the federal government with regard to climate protection and the expansion of renewable energies cannot be achieved. The local, temporal and weather-related fluctuations in electricity generation by wind and sun make storage a key technology for our energy supply.

Electricity storage - a new billion dollar market is emerging

The potential for electricity storage in Germany is enormous. Even today, every second new photovoltaic system in Germany is being combined with a battery storage system - in the future the rate is likely to climb to almost 100 percent. In addition, there are numerous retrofits of the more than 1.5 million solar systems that already exist in Germany.

The "Renewable Energy Storage" funding program, which was started by the federal government in spring 2013 and ended in 2018, kicked off the market and established solar power storage systems for private households in particular. Even after the end of the funding program, photovoltaic systems combined with storage systems will continue to receive subsidies in Germany. For storage manufacturers and solar installers, this has created a new billion-dollar market with global dimensions. "



So there is no reason when people are moaning on here that there is no sunshine in the night to charge an e-car, or when there is a power cut and you are stuck with charging your car. It is only a matter of higher investment to avoid that and has also the advantage in case of a power cut that your household is still running normal (fridges, air-con, internet, heating, etc.)

Max

[Devil]

Max,

Maybe you should take those rose-coloured glasses off your nose. Firstly, what kind of batteries are you talking about? From the supply point of view, we don't have enough lithium in the world. This means that we must have base metal batteries, most frequently lead acid. There are no supply difficulties to make enough batteries for the whole world. However, I, for one, would hate to have a large LA battery pack in the house. Lead compounds? Sulphuric acid? Think accidents! Think maintenance! Think lifetime and cost of replacement! Think of cowboys offering cheap non-hermetic batteries, requiring maintenance. Think of the regulations regarding the use and storage of LA batteries in specially designed rooms.

https://scdhec.gov/environment/land-man ... -batteries (USA)

[71 Trans Am]

Lithium Ion Batteries are now becoming Old Hat - The new line of thinking is Sodium Ion which is supposed to 6 times more efficient than Lithium Ion,
Available forever, Super safe and good for the environment - Nissan and Toyota have been developing the technology for the last two years but were pipped to the post by China who unveiled the first one last month - They charge much faster than Lithium Ion but at the moment need to be almost one and a half times the size to get the same output but no doubt development will change this - Some Japanese mobile phones are supposed to already run on Sodium Ion Batteries because they charge instantly.

https://qz.com/2041051/chinas-catl-unve ... nd%20cheap.

[Jim B]

There are recently some posts about buying or charging E-cars in the UK. I think it needs some clarification how other countries deal with it. This post is about Germany, which has a little bit more sunshine than the UK, but still only half of what we have in our sunny Cyprus. (850 kWh - 1750 kWh/y per 1 kWp installed)

It is a Google translate to avoid any misinterpretation which happened recently to one of my posts on here... anyhow I was upset and first thinking to abstain in future from doing post about renewable energy. So here we are: source stromauskunft.de



"The generation of electricity using wind and solar energy depends on the weather and not on the demand for electricity. It therefore makes sense to store electricity when there is a lot of sun and wind in order to make it available when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing.

Electricity storage systems are a key element in the success of the energy transition. Because without efficient storage technologies, the ambitious goals of the federal government with regard to climate protection and the expansion of renewable energies cannot be achieved. The local, temporal and weather-related fluctuations in electricity generation by wind and sun make storage a key technology for our energy supply.

Electricity storage - a new billion dollar market is emerging

The potential for electricity storage in Germany is enormous. Even today, every second new photovoltaic system in Germany is being combined with a battery storage system - in the future the rate is likely to climb to almost 100 percent. In addition, there are numerous retrofits of the more than 1.5 million solar systems that already exist in Germany.

The "Renewable Energy Storage" funding program, which was started by the federal government in spring 2013 and ended in 2018, kicked off the market and established solar power storage systems for private households in particular. Even after the end of the funding program, photovoltaic systems combined with storage systems will continue to receive subsidies in Germany. For storage manufacturers and solar installers, this has created a new billion-dollar market with global dimensions. "



So there is no reason when people are moaning on here that there is no sunshine in the night to charge an e-car, or when there is a power cut and you are stuck with charging your car. It is only a matter of higher investment to avoid that and has also the advantage in case of a power cut that your household is still running normal (fridges, air-con, internet, heating, etc.)

Max

Thanks for the overview Max, must appreciated.
I value your information as many on the forum do so don't let the odd one or two upset you.
By the way we spoke with Christos yesterday and received a quote this morning plus he's calling up to give me quotes on some other work we want doing.
Take care and keep posting.

Jim

[Devil]

Published August 2, 2021 A Chinese company became the first major car battery manufacturer to unveil a sodium-ion battery last week.

Hardly mainstream, is it? Let's talk about realities and not about pie in the sky projects. If a Na-ion battery proves to be a practicable mainstream solution, so much the better, but it will not be in my lifetime. (And Germany has not started to deal with it!)

[71 Trans Am]

Devil
You do post some total crap on here - I do appreciate that you are now elderly and have been out of the loop for a long time but if you must post on a particular subject make sure your facts are correct or stick to being a Weatherman - It may well be mainstream in your lifetime as improvements are being made every day - I deal with Japanese battery people a lot of the time and they are investing a lot of money and time behind the scenes to look for an alternatives to Lithium Ion and yes they have come across a lot of issues with Sodium Ion like its operating temperatures and ranges ie poor performance at room temperature but they are striving everyday to find solutions - But maybe I should tell them that the weatherman says that you have got it all wrong and the Billions you are investing in research are a waste of time - And as for you comment on Germany not starting to deal with it - The Germans have been involved with this research and trials since at least 2016 - So as you say lets talk about realities and not the total crap you continue to spew out on here on a daily basis -- " Pie in the sky projects " Get real will you

https://www.energy-storage.news/japanes ... r-project/

[Devil]

Devil
You do post some total crap on here -

So the truth hurts, does? Even with the fantastic diligence that the Chinese apply to new technology, I fail to see how this technology could become mainstream in under five years (by which time I hope I am dead). I admit that I have not seen any technical papers on the current technology.

To come back to the original subject, we still have no proven technology available for the widespread economical storage of electrical energy by chemical means, other than lead-acid, nickel-iron or similar.

Enjoy reading this new version of total crap.

[Dominic]

I don't think he was accusing you of telling the truth.

[71 Trans Am]

Devil
I get no joy from posting links to prove you wrong - But someone needs to put the brakes on your constant misinformation on this forum so it might as well be me as anyone else - You say you fail to see how this technology could become mainstream in under five years - Well -----

https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2247 ... ing-202125

The Chinese hope to have mainstream production in two years -2023 - But I suspect the Japanese will get this going slightly earlier than that from what I have heard recently as they do not like being beaten to the finish by anyone and I am told there are not many faults to iron out now in order to make this a viable venture.

Stick to the Weather Forecast - At least one out of three times you might get it right

[71 Trans Am]

Devil
Something else just occurred to me - Your real name isn't MICHAEL FISH is it ?
He was a weatherman noted for his Misinformation and then seems to have disappeared

[Dominic]

Devil
Something else just occurred to me - Your real name isn't MICHAEL FISH is it ?
He was a weatherman noted for his Misinformation and then seems to have disappeared

Ooo now there's a twist...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnxjZ-aFkjs

I remember he denied mentioning a hurricane for years afterwards, too...

[71 Trans Am]

My Dad used to say that you can never believe a word a weatherman say's because they always get it wrong - Maybe he was right

[Devil]

Devil you mention problems with having a pv system using lead acid batteries for storage , well the ones I have seen here in Cyprus DO use lead acid batteries ? Not seen a lithium battery.

I don't recall having mentioned the problem with using lead acid batteries, other than the practical ones of size, weight, disposal, 3 to 5 year lifetime, safety etc. There is no reason on earth why they cannot be used as backup of a PV system and they have the advantage of being low-cost, to boot.

[cyprusmax47]

Max,

Maybe you should take those rose-coloured glasses off your nose. Firstly, what kind of batteries are you talking about? From the supply point of view, we don't have enough lithium in the world. This means that we must have base metal batteries, most frequently lead acid. There are no supply difficulties to make enough batteries for the whole world. However, I, for one, would hate to have a large LA battery pack in the house. Lead compounds? Sulphuric acid? Think accidents! Think maintenance! Think lifetime and cost of replacement! Think of cowboys offering cheap non-hermetic batteries, requiring maintenance. Think of the regulations regarding the use and storage of LA batteries in specially designed rooms.

https://scdhec.gov/environment/land-man ... -batteries (USA)

Devil,

My article is about facts what happened in Germany concerning electricity produced from photo-voltaic and stored. As battery technology changed a lot in the past years, most of the systems installed now are with Lithium Ion type battery banks. You can be sure that hundred thousands households in Germany with such batteries are checked from the Authorities that they are safe.

Concerning the old technology with lead acid batteries you went on and on are still used in the Army or Hospitals as their lifespan is more than 20 years.

Unlike you, I installed more than 25 years ago 2 large battery banks, storing 44 kW/h electricity to run my house as an island system with wind and photovoltaic power on sun trackers, and learned as one goes how the lead batteries from Varta, Germany behaved. (48 pieces @ 2 volt, very heavy.)

So you don't tell me how dangerous and horrible they are, because you read something somewhere.

Of course I stored them in a separate shed with fan for air circulation and all they needed was every few month to check them and replace some distilled water, like in a car battery open type. Every 2-3 month they needed an overcharge of 20 minutes to loosen deposits inside the cells, that was all.
They came with a 6000 cycle guarantee from Varta, but now after 25 years they still are working. (never discharged more than 50%)!
But as TransAm said, also they becoming Old Hat, like Lithium type ones in a few years time when better solutions are developed. One of the big advantage of Lithium type ones is that they can be discharged completely without damage unlike lead acid and also their small weight and size.

Max

[jagwheels]

An interesting subject Max. It seems a solution is available in some cases but most cities have multi storey buildings etc. I am more interested in hearing from anyone up to speed regarding technology to store electricity on a country or global scale but suspect there will be silence