US Syrian Air Strikes

[cyprusgrump]

Runways are extremely diffcult to damage and actually require a different "approach" than cruise missiles which will have targeted buildings, bunkers an shelters...

Precisely.

If the Tomahawk can't carry a 'runway busting' ground penetrating warheads there appears to have been little point in firing sixty of them...

We of course may never know the reasoning or political circumstance which led to this type of attack at this time...

[cyprusgrump]

Reasoning? I think that is fairly obvious....Assad launched an attack on his own people, deploying Weapons of Mass destruction. The US attacked the airbase in order to deter further attacks.....hopefully destroying the area where the Sarin Warheads were assembled.

Hmmm...

Well, that may or may not be true... it is certainly true according to the media and various political mouthpieces. We simply don't know for sure do we...? Are there any independent military on the ground that can confirm the attack was by Assad...?

My own opinion is that Assad (brutal dictator that he is) is not stupid enough to have done such a thing at this stage in the war...

And if he was going to, given the opprobrium that was guaranteed to follow such an attack, why not make it something definitive? A game changer, a mass attack that would effectively end the conflict?

And the missile attack certainly hasn't had the effect of degrading the ability to deliver such weapons even if he did do it.

[Dominic]

One day the truth will come out. I don't think it has yet though.

[cyprusgrump]

One day the truth will come out. I don't think it has yet though.

Agreed...

Peter Hitchens has an interesting article about the events today...

[WHL]

This was nothing to do with hurting Syria, as the planes were taking off again a few hours after been hit....Trump saw his chance while entertaining the Chinese President to show some good ole USA muscle...remind the Chinese and more importantly the North Koreans that Trumps middle name is Rambo.....unlike some on here who have been Brainwashed into believing everything the press report its refreshing to see forum members not buying this rubbish.....Syria along with its Russian master has turned a corner and is winning this Civil war.......they have no political gain in using these dreadful weapons, only the rebels would gain from using them.....now waiting for the forums armchair General, to tell us how evil Assad is...surprise surprise ....we know,

[cyprusgrump]

It has been widely reported that there is little point in damaging runways, as runways can be easily repaired: destroyed aircraft and damaged bunkers can't be.

Assad has poisoned his own people before: 1,500 the last time (when Obama did nothing).

The poison this time was supposedly meant for Assad's foes. Unfortunately, innocent civilians - including children - got caught up in it.

Are there any independent military on the ground that can confirm the attack was by Assad...?

What kind of "independent military" would you like? United Nations? Independent peace observers? What a gormless question!

Why is that gormless...?

You don't think there should be some proof of action before retaliation?

It seems the proof comes from completely unreliable sources - see Peter Hitchens today...

In some reports of the alleged atrocity, a supposed ‘British doctor’, Shajul Islam, was quoted or shown on the spot, described as a ‘volunteer treating victims in hospital’.

Actually, he shouldn’t really be called a British doctor.

He was struck off the British medical register for ‘misconduct’ in March 2016.

The General Medical Council won’t say why. And in 2012 Shajul Islam was charged with terror offences in a British court.

He was accused of imprisoning John Cantlie, a British photographer, and a Dutchman, Jeroen Oerlemans.

Both men were held by a militant group in Syria and both were wounded when they tried to escape. Shajul Islam, it was alleged, was among their captors.

Shajul Islam’s trial collapsed in 2013, when it was revealed that Mr Cantlie had been abducted once again, and could not give evidence.

Mr Oerlemans refused to give evidence for fear that it would further endanger Mr Cantlie. Mr Oerlemans has since been killed in Libya. So the supposedly benevolent medical man at the scene of the alleged atrocity turns out to be a struck-off doctor who was once put on trial for kidnapping.

Does this change your view at all? It takes a couple of minutes to find this out if you look. But only one major Western news outlet, The Times, has put two and two together. Why is that?

And there is not, as far as I am aware any definitive proof that Assad 'poisoned his own people before'...

And certainly no logical reason why he should do so now.

The poison this time was supposedly meant for Assad's foes. Unfortunately, innocent civilians - including children - got caught up in it.

Quite so - there is a very good reason why poison gas hasn't been used widely since 1918. It is a rubbish weapon. You can't control its dispersion. Really, if you wanted to attack your enemy at the same time ignoring international treaties you would be much better off using cluster munitions.

And runways can't be 'easily repaired'... runways are extremely tough. That is why they develop special ground penetrating warheads that cause large heaves in the pavement which are difficult to remove and repair... Why do you believe they can repair a hardened runway but cannot for some reason repair a hardened bunker...?

'Widely reported' on the BBC and Guardian websites doesn't always make it so...

[WHL]

Where have we heard all this rubbish before........ah yes Tony Blair.

[PaphosAL]

I 100% agree with you on that point, Hudswell !!!

[ApusApus]

Can I suggest we start a fund for cyprusgrump to sponser a visit to Syria to see for himself?


Shane

[cyprusgrump]

Assad has used weapons of Mass Destruction on his own people, before and again now, he thought he would get away with it..if there is any justice this evil piece of shit will be hauled before a court and tried for War Crimes...and I am sorry but those of you out there that would wish to "demand" proof...the proof is in the faces of those children that died in agony...innocent of any crime...you may stand by and do nothing, safe in your cosy little lives...thankfully there are those that will actually stand up and be counted. Shame on you.

I'm sorry but that is a facile argument - there is no proof - no independent verification of what happened. Just a media frenzy.

As has been mentioned, Tony Blair was convinced about WMDs too...

[cyprusgrump]

Can I suggest we start a fund for cyprusgrump to sponser a visit to Syria to see for himself?


Shane

Or perhaps an independent reporter - you know, somebody not associated with the terrorist groups actually fighting Assad...?

[ApusApus]

Can I suggest we start a fund for cyprusgrump to sponser a visit to Syria to see for himself?


Shane

Or perhaps an independent reporter - you know, somebody not associated with the terrorist groups actually fighting Assad...?

Is there one? But what I can't understand is why would you decline an offer that gave you the chance to see for yourself what is actually happening, beats me?

Shane

[cyprusgrump]

Can I suggest we start a fund for cyprusgrump to sponser a visit to Syria to see for himself?


Shane

Or perhaps an independent reporter - you know, somebody not associated with the terrorist groups actually fighting Assad...?

Is there one? But what I can't understand is why would you decline an offer that gave you the chance to see for yourself what is actually happening, beats me?

Shane

Because it is a war torn shit hole and I wouldn't be stupid enough to go there for fear of being kidnapped/tortured/murdered by Islamic terrorists...

...which is coincidentally why there are no Western Journalists in the area...

...which is coincidentally why there is no independent verification of what actually happened to those poor children that the Islamic terrorists photographed and paraded in front of the Western media.

Does it still beat you...?

[Dominic]

I find it quite odd that lots of you seem quite happy to accept that Assad did this without any question. Did you learn nothing from WMD at all? We are not talking about tin hat conspiracy theories. Just a basic verification of the facts.

Because if Assad didn't do it, the question should be, who did?

[cyprusgrump]

So how do verify the facts? It is a war zone...the US, with a shed load of intelligence gathering capability...and that capabability will be supported by other national capability including then UK's ...the Aircraft were tracked, from take off..to the target..Sarin is Not something that you just cobble together...It takes a high degree of technical skill...Assad authorised this attack..he murdered men women and children...in the worst way possible..and Dominic, it's not odd...and if you do a simple google search you will find WMD Were In fact found in Iraq...degraded and probably unusable. but found.

Is this the same US that fired sixty million Dollars worth of Tomahawk cruise missiles at the retaliation target, missed with more than half and killed civilians outside of the airbase in the process...?

I find it bizarre that you admit the facts cannot be verified yet you know that Assad authorised the attack? And the solution is retaliatory attacks that will inevitably result in the deaths of yet more innocent men, women and children...?

And as the excellent example you gave - how many were killed in Iraq by chemical weapons compared to those killed by the 'solution'...? 174,000 civilian and combatant deaths between 2003 and 2013 - how many chemical weapon deaths...?

[WHL]

So how do verify the facts? It is a war zone...the US, with a shed load of intelligence gathering capability...and that capabability will be supported by other national capability including then UK's ...the Aircraft were tracked, from take off..to the target..Sarin is Not something that you just cobble together...It takes a high degree of technical skill...Assad authorised this attack..he murdered men women and children...in the worst way possible..and Dominic, it's not odd...and if you do a simple google search you will find WMD Were In fact found in Iraq...degraded and probably unusable. but found.

Is this the same US that fired sixty million Dollars worth of Tomahawk cruise missiles at the retaliation target, missed with more than half and killed civilians outside of the airbase in the process...?

I find it bizarre that you admit the facts cannot be verified yet you know that Assad authorised the attack? And the solution is retaliatory attacks that will inevitably result in the deaths of yet more innocent men, women and children...?

And as the excellent example you gave - how many were killed in Iraq by chemical weapons compared to those killed by the 'solution'...? 174,000 civilian and combatant deaths between 2003 and 2013 - how many chemical weapon deaths...?

Give it up mate..your flogging a dead horse...The yanks are the good guys ,Ruskies bad guys.....Brainwashed R Us

[cyprusgrump]

So how do verify the facts? It is a war zone...the US, with a shed load of intelligence gathering capability...and that capabability will be supported by other national capability including then UK's ...the Aircraft were tracked, from take off..to the target..Sarin is Not something that you just cobble together...It takes a high degree of technical skill...Assad authorised this attack..he murdered men women and children...in the worst way possible..and Dominic, it's not odd...and if you do a simple google search you will find WMD Were In fact found in Iraq...degraded and probably unusable. but found.

Is this the same US that fired sixty million Dollars worth of Tomahawk cruise missiles at the retaliation target, missed with more than half and killed civilians outside of the airbase in the process...?

I find it bizarre that you admit the facts cannot be verified yet you know that Assad authorised the attack? And the solution is retaliatory attacks that will inevitably result in the deaths of yet more innocent men, women and children...?

And as the excellent example you gave - how many were killed in Iraq by chemical weapons compared to those killed by the 'solution'...? 174,000 civilian and combatant deaths between 2003 and 2013 - how many chemical weapon deaths...?

Give it up mate..your flogging a dead horse...The yanks are the good guys ,Ruskies bad guys.....Brainwashed R Us

Flogging dead horses is sort of what I like to do...

[Varky]

Has the poison been identified as sarin? reports I have seen refer to a chlorine gas.

[cyprusgrump]

CG, were you there? I was...war is brutal and innocents suffer the most..

No, I never served. My father did - he was there June 6th 1944 - He was conscripted at 18 in 1943 and his experience on the day destroyed his life.

But what was the ratio of innocents to WMD deaths in Iraq as you raised it...?

Wiki says 20,000 WMD and 174,000 as the 'solution' being the invasion by the West...

Do you still think that the 'solution' to the unverified use of WMD by Assad is more war...?

[cyprusgrump]

i care little,what wiki says...but when a "leader" resorts to using Chemical Weapons against his own people..should he be removed...yes...and if that means the west steps up, when no one else will..the yes..because standing by and allowing this to happen is complicit.. And respect to your father..I joined at 16... Served for 40 years..and luckily survived my experiences...

But if Wiki is even moderately close, the effect of doing the 'right' thing in Iraq - based on piss poor intelligence and the insistence of Tony Blair that not only did WMDs exist but could be launched against the West on 40 mins notice - was catastrophic - especially for civilians...

And given that we have no evidence - certainly no evidence that you can present - that the "leader", in this case Assad ordered, was aware of or was in any way complicit with the chemical 'attack' then launching further attacks on him and his ally could prove equally as catastrophic.

I'm sure my father was clear who the aggressor was in 1944 and I'm guessing that when you served it was equally clear who you were fighting against.

But it isn't anywhere near as clear in this instance.