Sky news this morning - the bit that got political.

[cyprusgrump]

I don't believe UK expats believe they are infalable, they are pragmatic and in the main optimistic, and rightly so.

i think you are right... There are many of us that are optimistic and look to the future.

Sadly there are those that can see no light at the end of the tunnel - except a train coming towards them.

I think it depends largely* on your politics.

Those on the left, Socialists love big government, more tax, more government control, more nanny state, cradle to grave care and telling us what we can or can't do. To them, the EU is a wonderful adjunct to government - more regulation, more control and the useful ability to tell us what light bulbs we can use and how big the motor in our vacuum cleaner can be... Plus of course the EU has given us all sorts of things that couldn't possibly be achieved by any of the 168 non-EU countries in the world...

For those of us on the right; we want smaller government, less tax, less control and more ability to make decisions on our own lives. For us, the EU is just another unnecessary layer of government which costs us money. And of course we can see that many of the 168 non-EU countries in the world have many of the 'things' that the EU claims to be their own without paying a £10Bn membership fee every year.



* I read an interesting article in the NY Times the other day by somebody who described himself as a 'Leftiteer' - somebody from the left wing of politics who supported Brexit.

[cyprusgrump]

And of course we can see that many of the 168 non-EU countries in the world have many of the 'things' that the EU claims to be their own without paying a £10Bn membership fee every year.

Where did you get the £10Bn figure from? This independent fact-checking site says:

"In 2016 the UK government paid £13.1 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £8.6 billion". Source: https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-memb ... 5-million/

Still, that's a darned site less than the £50 billion figure being banded about as the possible exit premium from the EU.

A whole 6 year's "savings", in fact.

So, you think if you went into a bar, threw £1,310 over the bar for drinks but they insisted you had £450 in crisps that would be a good deal...?

And even if we take your figures you agree that the membership fee is £13Bn?

Or £8.6Bn... you are agreeing are you not that it costs £8.6Bn for the UK to be a member of the club?

And you well know that the £50Bn is just a made up number... the UK paid vastly more during its membership and in an article in the Telegraph (which you had minutes earlier quoted as being a reliable source) stated that the EU owed the UK far, far more...

[cyprusgrump]

I can see that at 6.30 tomorrow morning, this thread is gonna get a'shifted

Germany and France contribute far more to the EU than the UK does. The EU requires richer nations to be net contributors and this enables poorer nations to be net recipients. That's the way the EU works...and the UK knew this when it signed up. You might care to reflect that it was EU funds which contributed greatly towards bailing out Cyprus in 2013.

The UK has agreed to many forward commitments in the EU, which forms just one part of the €50 billion mooted. One thing the other partners have made quite clear; the rest of the negotiations will not start until both sides have agreed an equitable exit fee for the UK. It will be interesting to see what figure is ultimately agreed.

I thought the UK was the second largest contributor after Germany...?

It matters not really, you agree that it costs £8.6Bn pa to be a member of the club do you not...?

Good.

As for supporting other countries, I don't ever remember agreeing to paying tax so that Bulgarians could drive better cars (argued in another thread) or that Turkey could build EU funded high speed railways. No, I don't remember that ever being argued as a good case for membership.

As for the €50Bn it is hard to see how that can be the case as a net contributor. However, it does say something about the EU that after losing £8.6Bn a year from their budget, instead of cutting their cloth accordingly and reducing their outgoings they try and scam a former partner for it.

[cyprusgrump]

It is what it is. Over many years the UK's politicians, including Margaret Thatcher, negotiated and agreed terms under which which the UK would join and remain a member of the EU. No good squealing aftewards that it's more than you thought it would be

Politicians also gave us the option to vote to leave. Which we did.

No good squealing now because you didn't think we would...

[Varky]

For me the biggest failures in all this occurred when Cameron went to the EU trying to renegotiate some of the terms of membership and came back with, basically, nothing but still called it a success. From the EU point of view, this was a good opportunity to review some of the practices within the EU to streamline the organisation. Being run by a load of bureaucrats they failed to seize this opportunity bearing in mind an impending referendum in UK on membership, and we are where we are now, like it or not. It is interesting to note that since then several EU politicians have suggested such a review in the light of impending European elections. Unfortunately for the UK, that ship has sailed. Who knows what might have been

[geoffreys]

I can see that at 6.30 tomorrow morning, this thread is gonna get a'shifted

Germany and France contribute far more to the EU than the UK does. The EU requires richer nations to be net contributors and this enables poorer nations to be net recipients. That's the way the EU works...and the UK knew this when it signed up. You might care to reflect that it was EU funds which contributed greatly towards bailing out Cyprus in 2013.

The UK has agreed to many forward commitments in the EU, which forms just one part of the €50 billion mooted. One thing the other partners have made quite clear; the rest of the negotiations will not start until both sides have agreed an equitable exit fee for the UK. It will be interesting to see what figure is ultimately agreed.

Shifted to where??
They seem obsessed with moving threads around on this forum.

[cyprusgrump]

For me the biggest failures in all this occurred when Cameron went to the EU trying to renegotiate some of the terms of membership and came back with, basically, nothing but still called it a success. From the EU point of view, this was a good opportunity to review some of the practices within the EU to streamline the organisation. Being run by a load of bureaucrats they failed to seize this opportunity bearing in mind an impending referendum in UK on membership, and we are where we are now, like it or not. It is interesting to note that since then several EU politicians have suggested such a review in the light of impending European elections. Unfortunately for the UK, that ship has sailed. Who knows what might have been

Agreed!

If the EU had committed to meaningful reform I think Remain would have won the day...

So sure where they (and Cameron) that we would vote Remain that they didn't bother - and he didn't bother to plan for Brexit either. The rest is history...

[kingfisher]

Quite so, Grumps- it's known as treating your electorate with contempt- and Brexit and Trump are two results of the liberal left elite's arrogance and complacency.
The arrogance of the unelected EUrocracy is evidenced by the backtracking now over "reviews" which should have been thoroughly undertaken years ago.

[PhotoLady]

Nothing to do with the thread - but this particular Google ad placement gave me a giggle when I just clicked through the last post just now: