Heading for the Precipice? According to the Observor....

[Jimgward]

" As Britain hurtles towards the precipice, truth and democracy are in short supply "


https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ralleled-peace


Like sheep, the British people, regardless of whether they support Brexit, are being herded off a cliff, duped and misled by the most irresponsible, least trustworthy government in living memory. The moment when article 50 is triggered, signalling Britain’s irreversible decision to quit the EU, approaches inexorably. This week, on Black Wednesday, the UK will throw into jeopardy the achievements of 60 years of unparalleled European peace, security and prosperity from which it has greatly benefited. And for what?

The ultra-hard Tory Brexit break with Europe that is now seen as the most likely outcome when the two-year negotiation concludes is the peacetime equivalent of the ignominious retreat from Dunkirk. It is a national catastrophe by any measure. It is a historic error. And Theresa May, figuratively waving the cross of St George atop the white cliffs of Dover like a tone-deaf parody of Vera Lynn, will be remembered as the principal author of the debacle. This is not liberation, as Ukip argues, nor even a fresh start. It is a reckless, foolhardy leap into the unknown and the prelude, perhaps, to what the existentialist writer Albert Camus described in La chute – a fall from grace, in every conceivable sense.

It did not have to be this way. Like others who favoured Remain, we have reiterated, ad nauseam, our acceptance of the referendum result. But whether you were for or against, what confronts us all now is drastically different from what was on the table last June. The hard Tory Brexit in prospect represents an epic act of self-harm. A more enlightened Conservative prime minister, better attuned to the “one nation” tradition of the party of Disraeli and Macmillan, less in thrall to Little Englanders, and less intimidated by the peculiarly vicious and Manichaean worldview of the Daily Mail, would have taken a more consensual approach. Yet despite her promises when she became prime minister, Theresa May has failed to heal the divisions caused by Brexit.

Far from reuniting a fractured kingdom, she has divided it further, perhaps fatally, as the SNP’s unsettling decision last week to push for a second Scottish independence referendum implies. As Lord Heseltine has suggested, a more imaginative, braver and more consistent leader could have used the referendum result to propel an immediate negotiation with the EU on much-needed reforms. If, at the end of that process, Britain’s demands remained unmet, the divorce could have proceeded or, if a deal were agreed, been put to a second vote. Instead, May, more sheep than shepherd, has feebly allowed herself to be driven ever further towards an extreme, inflexible, take-it-or- leave-it stance for which she has neither mandate nor credible grounds.

The main reason that May and her ministers now say that no deal would be better than a bad deal is that even the most blinkered Brexiters have belatedly realised what an impossible position they have placed the country in. They simply cannot deliver what they promised. Nor will an affronted, alienated Brussels help them do so. Rejigged single market access? Forget it. A bespoke customs union? Not a chance. A free trade deal within two years? In your dreams. It has become crystal clear that none of this is possible while ministers continue to reject freedom of movement and other basic EU principles, including European court of justice jurisdiction. On this, the other 27 countries are united. So now the hard Brexiters say, with astonishingly cynical mendacity, that Britain would be better off going it alone. This approach plays fast and loose with ordinary people’s livelihoods. Yet still, with jingoistic horns and trumpets drowning out the roar of the deep, the stampede towards the cliff’s edge gathers pace.

Every day produces more evidence that this hard Tory Brexit is a disaster in the making. Carmakers and other export manufacturers, fearing swingeing tariffs, are demanding special protections and exemptions or else they leave. Professional bodies, ranging from lawyers to economists, warn of endlessly damaging business consequences. The NHS faces the loss of tens of thousands of qualified doctors and nurses it has no prospect of replacing. Care homes are in a similar plight. Banks, financial institutions and airlines face unavoidable decisions about moving jobs and operations to mainland Europe.

Environmentalists rightly fear the cleaner rivers and cleaner air ensured by EU regulations (red tape to the Europhobes) may soon become a thing of the past. British citizens living and working in Europe fear the chaos that would surely follow all-out rupture; likewise EU citizens living here. Britain’s farmers, like its academics, surely realise by now, if they did not before, that they cannot trust this government to replicate the research funding, subsidies and employment freedoms that EU membership currently bestows. The average British family is now hemmed in by multiple, authoritative predictions of stagnant or falling wages, higher food and fuel prices, an ongoing sterling devaluation, collapsing social care and public services and increased, regressive indirect taxation. Be you a Remainer or a Leaver, you would have to be particularly obtuse not to see that May’s hard Tory Brexit will cost this country and its families more than it can conceivably afford.

The prospective political, diplomatic and reputational cost is every bit as daunting. Take the damage to Britain’s democracy. Last week, parliament was at its best, uniting in defiance of terrorism. The week before, it was at its worst, agreeing to deny itself a meaningful vote on any final deal. The government argued that to do otherwise would tie its hands. This is baloney. David Davis, Liam Fox, Boris Johnson and the other Brexit blowhards know they have no chance of achieving their stated aims, such as a £350m weekly NHS payback. So they pre-emptively reject parliamentary scrutiny, dismiss any criticism as unpatriotic and hope, like the cheap chancers they are, that they will get away with it. They’ve peddled a fake Brexit, full of false promises. The reality is beginning to dawn.

Unconscionably, they and their outliers in the hard Brexit media have attempted to stifle debate and question those who demand proper scrutiny of the most significant political and economic challenge to Britain in decades. They have helped foster a corrosive, mean-spirited, angry and divisive atmosphere that May and her lieutenants are too weak to challenge. Into this swill comes Leave financier-in-chief, Arron Banks, who last week announced he was setting up a “Patriotic Alliance” to attempt to unseat 100 Remain-supporting MPs. The Daily Mail, Katie Hopkins, Arron Banks, Nigel Farage, Paul Nuttall – meet Britain’s new patriots. Except they’re not, because divisiveness and intolerance are not the values of patriots.


There is a criticism of one’s country that is born of hate and a criticism born of love. And they are materially different. One wishes to divide us, the other attempts to bind, cohere and support. It fell last week to Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, to throw a cold bucket of reality over the ultra-hard Brexiters’ fantasies. The effect was chilling. Barnier made clear May’s “no deal” option was no option at all. He warned of queues of lorries at Dover, chaos for ordinary citizens and custom controls on trade from day one of the UK’s withdrawal. Barnier also made plain the EU would not even begin to talk about a post-Brexit trade deal until Britain agrees to cough up the estimated £50bn Brussels says it owes in prior commitments. The figure is disputed. But the principle is not. Britain faces a hugely costly settling of accounts, whatever parti pris barristers may advise. For good measure, Barnier insisted the Irish border conundrum and citizens’ rights must be resolved before other Brexit matters can be discussed.

Barnier says the EU wants a deal. And it would be reckless indeed for EU leaders to ignore the factors that produced the Brexit vote, many of which can be observed across the union. The EU itself is becoming uncomfortably aware that as well as a need to show flexibility towards the UK, it also has to demonstrate to its own citizens an awareness of its democratic and policy deficiencies if it is to rekindle the support that has seen it develop since its origins in the Treaty of Rome 60 years ago.

But Barnier’s stance, if unchanged, presages a negotiations humiliation for the government. Yet more threatening for the ultra-hard Brexit brigade and the lie factories of Fleet Street was Barnier’s vow to spell out what leaving the EU really entails for the British people. “We need to tell the truth and we will tell the truth to our citizens about what Brexit means,” Barnier said, his point being that, until now, here and elsewhere, such truths have been deliberately concealed, ignored or distorted. How galling, and how ironic, that the country, the “mother of parliaments” that boastfully styles itself the home of modern representative governance, should need a lesson in open democracy. But needed it is. Truth and common sense are in short supply as Britain charges towards the precipice.

[smudger]

Jim, sorry I stopped reading this rant halfway through.
Cannot believe the twaddle you are talking. You know nothing of the deal to be done, the negotiations to be deliberated, the concessions to be had or to be delivered, the topics, the strategies, the policies to be discussed ..................the subsequent results.

Get a grip Jim, you know absolutely nothing yet. Except the one straight truth - this is what the UK voted for. Neither you nor any other remainer can speculate about what the government has done, will do, and possibly could do

Why can't the remainers just simply wait and see what the negotiations bring on?? Please, please stop the speculation, the doom and gloom, your views of how dim witted the Brexiteers are, how much cleverer you all think you are. YOU SIMPLY DONT KNOW!!

Please give it a rest, just wait and see.

[kingfisher]

Project Fear has certainly succeeded- but only in terrifying generation snowflake. I doubt that any grown-ups are kept awake at night by this rubbish.

[cyprusgrump]

Jim, sorry I stopped reading this rant halfway through.
Cannot believe the twaddle you are talking. You know nothing of the deal to be done, the negotiations to be deliberated, the concessions to be had or to be delivered, the topics, the strategies, the policies to be discussed ..................the subsequent results.

Get a grip Jim, you know absolutely nothing yet. Except the one straight truth - this is what the UK voted for. Neither you nor any other remainer can speculate about what the government has done, will do, Amy do possibly could do.

Why can't the remainers just simply wait and see what the negotiations bring on?? Please, please stop the speculation, the doom and gloom, your views of how dim witted the Brexiteers are, how much cleverer you all think you are. YOU SIMPLY DONT KNOW!!

Please give it a rest, just wait and see.

Oh well done - I got to paragraph three....

You only have to read stuff like this to see why the public voted leave...

Has The Guardian learnt nothing since June 23rd...?

[Dominic]

I didn't get past the first line, and I voted remain!

[surreyboy]

A load of twaddle from a stir-up merchant.

[Cogs123]

Regardless of your stance on Brexit, this article is merely reporting the issues as they currently stand & the concerns about the Governments ' Hard Brexit ' suggestion.
Why should they not voice their opinions?...isn't that the whole point of a democracy, being shouted down or branded a
' snowflake ' because you have a different opinion is hardly reasoned debate.
The article is correct when it states that the Government has no mandate for a ' Hard Brexit '...it was an IN/OUT vote...
no more, no less.

[smudger]

So, by the same token it had no mandate for a soft Brexit either. So why don't we all just let them get on with it????? Either way.

What's the point of voicing opinions?? Do any of us have any input into the negotiations? NO, so what the heck is the point in voicing opinions??? Let those doing the negotiations get on with it.

And if anyone is idiotic enough to think that David Davies or any of his cohorts are looking in on PP to see what a few whingeing Brits think, then it's time you went for a lay down in a darkened room for a very long time!!

[merchant_banker]

Wot a load of Baldilocks

More remoaners propaganda.

[Lynsab]

Thought provoking article Jim from The Observer and many points I agree with....i hadn't read it till now...

Thanks for posting...

[cyprusgrump]

I didn't get past the first line, and I voted remain!

[cyprusgrump]

Regardless of your stance on Brexit, this article is merely reporting the issues as they currently stand & the concerns about the Governments ' Hard Brexit ' suggestion.
Why should they not voice their opinions?...isn't that the whole point of a democracy, being shouted down or branded a
' snowflake ' because you have a different opinion is hardly reasoned debate.
The article is correct when it states that the Government has no mandate for a ' Hard Brexit '...it was an IN/OUT vote...
no more, no less.

Which part of 'OUT' confuses you...?

There is no 'hard' or 'soft' Brexit - the vote was 'IN' or 'OUT' - we voted 'OUT'....

[holitec]

well I will be heading off a precipece via parachute, for PPDS, so will let you know how it works out in May (sponsors welcome plus date to be advised!)

Ref Brexit, no one knows, no one can predict what will happen, and if the UK falls out with the EU there are other avenues, however a "hard brexit" will be happening, because the mandate was for OUT of the EU political union (ECJ/Migration etc). However that does not mean leaving europe, or could remain in the EFTA (Common Market as it used to be called and voted for in the 70's), however that depends on the negoiation and how much TM is prepared to pay in and what bits like EASA,ESA/Europol/Erasmus/Horizon etc she wants to keep. Some items are not dependent on being full members of the EU or even in EFTA/EEA. For example, EASA has 34 members (so Ryanair/Easyjet will be ok), when I last checked the EU has only 28 Member states, soon to be 27.

So, as Smudger said why not just let them get on with it, either way!

One thing you can be sure of is that a Conservative Govt will not screw up businesses/trade if at all possible, it is in their genes (and backers!)

Digby

[Jimgward]

Jim, sorry I stopped reading this rant halfway through.
Cannot believe the twaddle you are talking. You know nothing of the deal to be done, the negotiations to be deliberated, the concessions to be had or to be delivered, the topics, the strategies, the policies to be discussed ..................the subsequent results.

Get a grip Jim, you know absolutely nothing yet. Except the one straight truth - this is what the UK voted for. Neither you nor any other remainer can speculate about what the government has done, will do, and possibly could do

Why can't the remainers just simply wait and see what the negotiations bring on?? Please, please stop the speculation, the doom and gloom, your views of how dim witted the Brexiteers are, how much cleverer you all think you are. YOU SIMPLY DONT KNOW!!

Please give it a rest, just wait and see.

Sorry, old bean, this "twaddle" as you put it, is from the Observor.... not me... but nice to see how you would regard a fellow member of the forum who had views opposed to your own.... I'll refrain from similar put-downs...

Why should anyone wait and see what happens? Democracy gives us all a voice and elected members to represent collective voices. Only by airing c0ncerns can we ensure that we don't all get "stitched-up" as it certainly appears in many learned journals on this.

As to dim-witted, how dare you assume such about anyone.... narrow-minded would e a good description of your thoughts.

[Jimgward]

A load of twaddle from a stir-up merchant.

The journalist? Do you know him/her?

[Jimgward]

Honestly, so many on here seem afraid or simply dismissive, or worse, antagonistic towards any view that doesn't fit their own...

[Poppy]

Off topic but I must wish Digby well for his parachute jump for PPDS. Brave or mad I'm not quite sure but all the very best!!

[smudger]

Jim, I don't really give a jot whether you carry on speculating or not, like many others I stopped reading the stuff, it's just the same old regurgitation that is frankly just boring and a waste of time. I see nothing democratic in posting article after article which agree with your stance. And to repeat, as no one knows until the negotiations even start, let alone finish, what the outcome will be it's a discussion about nothing. Democracy doesn't come into it.

And by the way, the comment re dim witted wasn't mine. Perhaps you need to read my final paragraph again. I was simply reflecting on the attitudes and comments of the remainers. You have Lloyd to thank for it so perhaps you need to direct your disdain at him and apologise to me.

[Jimgward]

So, you call what you thought was my words, "Twaddle", yet want me to apologise to you? I will over the mistake over the dim-witted comment.... perhaps you will over the twaddle one....?

As to being bored reading regurgitated news....

The thread title was VERY clear as to the content. What don't you just not open a thread of no interest to you?


Others find it interesting.... it's not for any single member to decide what should and what should not be on this forum.... So please don't try...

I actually think arguments on both sides of the Brexit issue are VERY relevant. I enjoy reading both sides as it helps inform me better. The issue of Brexit is very serious to anyone who either lives or has invested in Cyprus.... It COULD affect our lives greatly. I do hope for the better, but have reservations and indications are that half he country at least, also has reservations. Perhaps if Brexit wasn't so hard and extreme, we wouldn't worry so much. As it is, with mortgages to pay in Cyprus and effects on property prices, tourism, exchange rates and entry for British citizens, it's probably the number one issue for most of us.....

There's also an ability to ignore me.... please do...

[kingfisher]

Jim- “Perhaps if Brexit weren’t so hard and extreme, we wouldn’t worry so much”

Might I suggest :

Biggles’ Philosophy:

When you are flying, everything is either all right or it is not all right.
If it is all right, there is no need to worry.
If it is not all right, then one of two things will occur,
Either you will crash or you will not crash.
If you crash one of two things will happen;
Either you will be injured or you will not be injured.
If you are not injured, no need to worry.
If you are injured you will either live- or die.
If you live no need to worry-
If you die you can’t worry…