Brexit

[Rita Sherry]

My goodness me whats in a name? Road Warrior and Keving I wonder what nomenclature you will bestow on me (careful now this is the "moderate politics" section ) I am a pensioner living presently (emphasis on presently) in Cyprus. I have no property in the UK but I do pay my taxes there but not NI cause I am too old. I have not, thankfully, since moving to Cyprus had reason to have recourse to the NHS having paid for my cardiology treatment and neither do I use any of the other provisions my taxes are used for. Perhaps I fall into what the Cypriot category definition is "Foreigner" and they are correct. I do like to think of myself as a guest in the country but what the heck.

JimB - You have obviously been away - welcome back Now I tried to find the article in yesterday's Independent you speak of but cannot and, of course, one can only look at that Newspaper on line these days. Nevertheless I will take issue with you on your condemnation of Theresa May (no surprise to you I am sure). Firstly she first became an MP in 1997 the year Tony Blair et al took office and it was he not she who messed around with the immigration rules adopting an almost "open door" policy (hidden from the public and many MPs you will recall) on the basis immigrants from certain countries were more likely to support labour - after the discovery and his retirement from politics there was at least some sort of apology from the remainder of the party MPs holding office but the damage was done. Mrs May was not in government until 2010 so you cannot blame her on this one. Furthermore there is a Registration system in place even to a lesser extent for those people from the EU although they are supposed to have a job to come to and financial means of support etc. You of all people from your personal experience are aware of the requirements as we exchanged views on this one on the Cyprus Living site based on my immigration legal experience with HM Government . So please stop muddying the waters and blaming us nasty Tories for all the ills of the country and dare I say so misleading others.

By the way Keving and Road Warrior whilst I am over 60 (85 next month)female and Tory I was one of the latter from when I was 17 so again I did not suddenly become delusional over Brexit.

Have a good day - the sun is shining.

Rita

[Jim B]

Hello Rita. I hope you are well. Road Waŕrior beat me to the post. Her brief as Home Secretary for six years was to reduce Immigration and her record was abysmal; if you recall the only numbers she managed to reduce was Immigration Officers. I'm sure you can recall the queues of people at all the major airports due to the lack of officials. If the lady performed like that in the private sector she would have lost her job not made chairwoman of the company.

Jim

[Jim B]

Hello Rita. I hope you are well. Road Waŕrior beat me to the post. Her brief as Home Secretary for six years was to reduce Immigration and her record was abysmal; if you recall the only numbers she managed to reduce was Immigration Officers. I'm sure you can recall the queues of people at all the major airports due to the lack of officials. If the lady performed like that in the private sector she would have lost her job not made chairwoman of the company.

Jim

[Rita Sherry]

Hello Road Warrior and Jim B

It was not raining at Murrayfield and today has been fabulous in my view. Both Scotland (my late husband was a Scot) and England won their matches and to top it all Chelsea beat Arsenal. Sitting comfortably on the sofa my cat and I watched both the Rugby whilst drinking a very palatable red wine (me that is not the cat) eating chocolate and crisps for the cat and cheering both teams on. Had a very edible dinner (both of us) and now I am off to my bed and will comment on the serious stuff tomorrow. Don't want to spoil my day.

I am very well thank you Jim and trust your family and your goodself are too.

Rita

[PhotoLady]

This is one thing that has always annoyed me. It is as if the UK deliberately chose to create problems for itself.

It is the same with the so-called health tourism. That wouldn't be such a problem if the NHS bothered to claim the money back.

There's a TV programme called "Hospital" on in UK on Weds nights - think it's on BBC2.
We tend to watch it on the iPlayer after the event but this coming Weds 8 Feb, the show will be touching on how the health service chases up on those who don't qualify for treatment and present them with a bill.
Other than that, I can't tell you any more - that's the clip it showed at the end of the programme when we watched it last night.

It's been a very good series and is pretty scary stuff!

[keving]

We watched that episode of 'Hospital' too. In fairness to the man whose job it is to collect monies owed for the trust, it was evident that he did his utmost to collect payments from those who were not entitled to free treatment; but to be fair, he is faced with an almost-impossible task. Witness the lady from Nigeria who prematurely gave birth to triplets (or was it quadruplets?) having been refused entry to the USA and who was on her way back to Nigeria. From memory, the babies were only about 5 or 6 months old and the surviving babies had to be kept in Intensive Care for weeks on end. In the end, the mother racked up a bill of a third of a million pounds. There was no earthly way she was ever going to be able to pay that kind of money and I doubt most of us could afford a surprise medical bill on that scale.

All credit to him, his trust did manage to collect 25-35% of the medical costs due to them over the course of a year. And while it is easy to be critical of unpaid medical bills, I doubt any of us could have done a better job than this particular individual. As the health professionals rightly point out, medicine is all about care and compassion; none of the doctors or nurses would turn someone away at the doors of the hospital.

One of the best fly-on-the-wall docs running on TV at the moment. Last of the series of three is this coming week, I believe. BBC2.

Thanks for putting the record straight regarding the Nigerian woman Lloyd.

As usual the first story we hear these days is usually the twisted version, the non factual version of events, eg in this case, "the woman came to the UK to give birth". Just not true is it, as you have pointed out.

She flew to America where she has family, intending to give birth after full term (she was only 6 months pregnant), but she was not allowed to stay.

Yes, she had quads but unfortunately 2 have subsequently died.

I have seen a figure of £500,000 and wonder how this was arrived at. Was new expensive equipment bought solely for the benefit of this woman, was the medication for her and her children so expensive, is she being charged for the nurses and doctors time(weren't they being paid anyway) ... £500,000 is an incredible figure and not one that I am prepared to swallow without some factual reporting.

I agree with you, if someone has left the country with perhaps no intention to return, it must be incredibly difficult to get reimbursement for medical costs. I think a success rate of 25-30% is pretty good.

I haven't watched the programme but will make a point of doing so.

[keving]

Thanks R W

[geoffreys]

There was another case in the UK press recently about a Nigerian lady who flew to UK heavily pregnant (I would have thought no airline would take her in that condition).
She gave birth on the plane as it approached LHR and had quadruplets.
The were in intensive care for 2 months, Mum needed hospitalization also, and 24H nursing.
Total cost to the NHS (= UK taxpayer) £500K!!!
She had no money or insurance.
What would happen if it had been the USA?
Geoff.

[keving]

Lloyd, I totally agree with your compassionate approach.

You know, I think the majority of people who complain and make the most noise about the cost to the UK tax payer are either (a) expats in a quasi tax haven like Cyprus or (b) are part of the 50% of the electorate in the UK who either pay no tax or who receive more in benefits than the income tax that they pay.

I have no problem at all with the UK being a caring society, and that should apply to emergencies in respect of overseas visitors who haven't come to the UK as health tourists.

Maybe those people who pay no tax in the UK, or those in the UK who recieve more in benefits than they pay in tax should "move on", "shut up", "suck it up", leave the debate and just get behind the 40% tax payers in the UK who are keeping the country afloat and don't mind the tax we are paying in order to have a caring society.

[Jimgym]

I guess the UK health system is seen as a soft touch by many, and of course if they get away with it then it would encourage others.

[Rita Sherry]

Lloyd & Keving- Well said in all of your points on this particular issue.

I understand the total cost for this particular lady and her babies was in fact 250,000 sterling - a considerable amount of money I grant but like you said and has since been reported following the usual newspaper hysterics this was not a lady seeking medical treatment but an emergency case when she prematurely went into labour. I am proud the country of my birth shows such compassion and sincerely hope that should I be in desperate need of medical attention at any time I can receive the same consideration. She was not repeat not deliberately seeking medical assistance i.e. NOT A HEALTH TOURIST.

I too watch the TV programme which I find most interesting.

Rita

[keving]

Lloyd & Keving- Well said in all of your points on this particular issue.

I understand the total cost for this particular lady and her babies was in fact 250,000 sterling - a considerable amount of money I grant but like you said and has since been reported following the usual newspaper hysterics this was not a lady seeking medical treatment but an emergency case when she prematurely went into labour. I am proud the country of my birth shows such compassion and sincerely hope that should I be in desperate need of medical attention at any time I can receive the same consideration. She was not repeat not deliberately seeking medical assistance i.e. NOT A HEALTH TOURIST.

I too watch the TV programme which I find most interesting.

Rita

Thank you Rita. You reaffirm that compassion is not restricted to political affiliation ... despite our political differences we can unite when that is the right thing to

[Jimgward]

I am appalled that some people would consider that this emergency situation could have been handled any differently.... compassion, charity and help before payment is truly what makes Britain and the NHS great. If we became like the US, God help us. I think it also rises above any party politics. How anyone could feel differently, I don't know.....

We live in a society where we would be appalled at thousands of dog sleeping rough on the streets of London, begging for food. It would be headline news. Yet, we have human beings, most victims of circumstance, abuse, addiction or whatever, yet we ignore them largely, close our eyes and ears.... We do it in every country. We try to be immune to human suffering.

If you believe in an afterlife, you will also believe in facing some form of judgement for how you lived your life. This is often linked to what mistakes you made in life. What you did wrong. I believe we will be judged not on what we did, but on what we didn't do. What we knew but chose to ignore. Of this, I also plead guilty.

[geoffreys]

Geoff, did you not read my earlier post today of 11.39am (previous page) and subsequent one 3.57pm, where you will read the correct facts, not something culled from a tabloid newspaper?

Well the point is made either way (whatever the actual cost to the UK taxpayer was).
Why was this lady allowed onto a flight to UK from Nigeria when she was about to give (multiple) birth?
My other question was what would happen to her had she arrived in the USA?
Geoff.

[Dominic]

If you read his post you will find out. The lady was refused entry into the US, where she had relatives, and was on her way back to Nigeria.

I am surprised they let her fly at all in that condition, but that is another matter.

[geoffreys]

If you read his post you will find out. The lady was refused entry into the US, where she had relatives, and was on her way back to Nigeria.

I am surprised they let her fly at all in that condition, but that is another matter.

Thank you Dominic. I had read his post briefly but missed that point.
The question then arises, why didn't the UK do the same? Two of the babies died anyway.
Soft touch etc.....
Geoff.

[Dominic]

I guess the only alternative would be to have them on the plane? I think the bottom line is that the lady didn't set out intending to have them in the UK. Circumstances dictated that that should have happened. Personally I am glad the UK helped. The main unanswered question, I think, is not why did the UK help, but why was she allowed to fly in the first place? But without knowing the full story, there will never be a satisfactory answer.

[Jimgym]

Geoff, you can't turn someone away in such need! My point was about stopping health tourists, not genuine cases such as hers. Too many people do see the NHS as a soft touch, health tourists I mean, not residents.

[geoffreys]

Geoff, you can't turn someone away in such need! My point was about stopping health tourists, not genuine cases such as hers. Too many people do see the NHS as a soft touch, health tourists I mean, not residents.

I think, therefore, that the Nigerian Govt should be billed for her NHS costs - assuming Nigeria was where she started her journey.
If she started it in another country that country should be billed; because she should NOT have been allowed to fly so close
to giving birth. It must have been obvious she was pregnant with 4 babies!
Geoff.

[smudger]

I think airlines allow pregnant women to fly til quite late into the pregnancy, something like 30 odd weeks, but shorter if it's a multiple birth.

It crossed my mind though if she can't pay the bill in the UK how on earth was she going to pay it in America as the article said she had flown to America to have the babies? I realise she wasn't planning to have them so early, but even so it was a multiple pregnancy and would be expensive even without complications. She didn't have travel insurance when she flew to UK so perhaps she didnt have it for America and that was why they wouldn't let her stay.

Funnily enough as I type, there is a surgeon (I think) on BBC news talking about the problem of overseas visitors and the NHS and says that the chap who had been seen trying to recover funds from overseas patients on the programme actually covered 3 hospitals, and I can't remember the actual figures he quoted but the number of people he would be trying to deal with in 3 different hospitals, and in dozens of different departments would be colossal and this is is a problem which needs addressing if more funds are to be recovered. He also quoted the neo-natal unit where the Nigerian lady's babies were as being only a 10 bed unit and that during the time they were there, 2 babies for 5 months, other babies would be turned away and he would like to know how many other babies were actually turned away from the unit in that time.
His suggestion was that all overseas nationals should have to have travel insurance in order to get a visa, I thought someone on one of the forums who is married to a nonEU national had said at some point that they did have to have it to get a visa, or am I mixing that up with residency application requirements?

Perhaps the Nigerian lady had insurance for America, but would have thought it unlikely that they would have allowed her to travel even at 6 months with a multiple pregnancy??