Hard or Soft.....

[David]

On a purely selfish note we were terrified by the thought of a referendum and what either result would mean for our Cyprus dream. My son, (29), asked how I would vote and my honest answer was, I was torn. I understood people "wanted their country back" but we wanted to move to the EU and were bombarded from either side by warnings of imminent recession, collapsing housing market and restricted, or forbidden, travel.

Fortunately, age, and experience, (30 Years as a couple living through 3 recessions) meant when we were up against it, we made our own minds up.

20 years ago and redundant I went back to education for four years and learned how the.world worked, (No, it.wasn't free then, I had a Mature Student loan). Two years ago, same thing, swallowed up by a multi national and told to go elsewhere. So I went back to education in my 60s and did City & Guilds in IT. At least I now know in this, so called, modern world how to engage the 'experts'.

I don't know what decisions our kids will make in this post-home-owning, renting, EU -less and terrorist -ridden world, but they will make their own way as we have and I don't know whether the EU will collapse or whether Cyprus will stay in the EU. The only thing I do know is that wherever I live, and I choose to live in Cyprus, referendums are a sop offered to a grumbling population and a political gamble.They are "elevated to the "Higher House " eventually whatever the outcome and we live with the consequences.

The only occasion they tripped up was the Poll Tax, and she was.supposed to be politically astute. On the other side the unions are getting just as twitchy about their incumbent.

Divide and rule people!

[Conoflex]

Everyone knew what the UK referendum was about and the majority of the population made their feelings known. I personally was open minded about it-if the EU showed willing to change then stick with it, if not leave it. The EU showed it's true colours during the sham negotiations with Cameron, so out it was

The only option now is a hard Brexit, from which we renegotiate a new set of rules in our dealings with our European neighbours.

We keep on hearing of the need to reflect the wishes of the 48% in a softer Brexit. I am quite sure that if the result had gone the other way the wishes of the Brexiteers would have been consigned to the dustbin of history the very same day ?

Solomon wisely decided you can’t cut a baby in half- Brexit is the same. We are either in or out, the vote was out and we now leave the single market, the EU, the ECJ etc and negotiate the best deal we can with our European friends and allies.

The single market is the “best” bit about the EU, much of the rest is political chicanery using the single market and EU funds to lure new members in and then force a political union on them that no electorate wants. The Euro and freedom of movement were always designed to break down national barriers, the “common market” has now been distorted to try and augment the effects of the other two. The effects of these EU core polices are the root of a incredible number of problems in Europe that are not being even remotely addressed

I can say with my hand on my heart if I had voted to stay and the result was to leave I would have accepted it for what it was. A fair result from a fair referendum that told me the majority of my fellow countrymen disagreed with me, and for better or worse I would not only abide by that decision I would do my utmost to ensure it was carried out successfully. We need to access the singe market, they need to access the British market, it is only a very narrow minded group of vested interests that stands in the way of that, and those interests are purely political and self serving, not economic

Change happens - if it isn’t allowed to happen gradually and naturally, it occurs suddenly and violently. That is nature, that is also politics and people in power should always be aware of that

No one with a rational mind can look at the EU and say it is working well and does not have to change. You maybe won’t like changes and you maybe didn’t expect them, but there are others who will benefit from them and that shift brings about a more balanced equilibrium that works better for more people.That is known as progress.

Something that cannot change can never be progressive. Certain people may dislike change but in a democracy if that is what the majority wants that is the everyone has to encompass. If you cannot accept change you are little more than a Luddite

What of course is worse is those who cannot even contemplate change- that is about as repressed as the human mind can get and it is from groups with such a state of mind the Flat Earth Society still recruits it’s believers.

Being unable to contemplate change reflects a range of conditions ranging from fear and greed, old age, superiority complex (invariably misplaced) or just good old fashioned bigotry- either way it’s not a great trait to be afflicted with, but there is an awful lot of it about

Brexit will be difficult, in will involve paying a price short term, less so long term, but when I see the reaction of the likes of Blair, Clegg, Milliband, Sturgeon, Juncker, Hollande etc to it all I just know the people of the UK got it right

[Rita Sherry]

Conoflex

Congratulations - one of the best posts on this topic I have read on any forum.

Well done

Rita

[Conoflex]

I know they asked for no links, but I hope this one is OK

It's Clegg, showing all the democratic credentials of Attila the Hun.

[keving]

I know they asked for no links, but I hope this one is OK

It's Clegg, showing all the democratic credentials of Attila the Hun.

Conoflex, your knowledge of history appears sadly lacking ... or maybe you think you can be funny and you are setting out your stall for the position of resident Paphos Life Political Satirist?

Its a small pond.

[Jimgym]

I know they asked for no links, but I hope this one is OK

It's Clegg, showing all the democratic credentials of Attila the Hun.

Phew that was painful to watch. Mr. Clegg certainly didn't do himself any favours with that interview.

[Conoflex]

Not trying to set out my stall for anything- I have simply posted a link to an interview in which a person (who previously ditched many of his party's principles to support a Conservative party that ultimately would bring in the EU referendum) shows a complete and utter disregard for a perfectly democratic process and an utter unwillingness to accept a majority vote.

Rather than trying to undermine my posting, you might be better served addressing what that man said in that interview -it s a quite extraordinarily revealing interview IMHO, and 100% typical of the reaction of so many of the political classes to a referendum which they devised and authorised

[cyprusgrump]

No one with a rational mind can look at the EU and say it is working well and does not have to change. You maybe won’t like changes and you maybe didn’t expect them, but there are others who will benefit from them and that shift brings about a more balanced equilibrium that works better for more people.That is known as progress.

I think the problem is that too many people still get their 'news' from the mainstream media...

If you get your 'news' from the BBC or Sky, read The Guardian or Independent (hahaha), etc. you may well believe that the EU is the best thing since sliced bread because they all do. It is like existing in an echo chamber, every media source agrees with your world view.

I used to do that... I thought the BBC was the best thing since sliced bread and believed everything it said.

For me, the emergence of the Blogosphere has allowed me to challenge the MSM view of the world and see the lies that we are being told on a daily basis. On many subjects from the smoking ban, sugar, salt, booze global warming and of course the EU the real facts behind the subject have no relationship to the view pushed out by the MSM.

Often this is down to laziness... The BBC time and time again broadcasts press releases from single issue campaign groups as fact without even checking the data that the release was based on (if any). But often it is agenda driven - the left-wing BBC loves the big nanny state so EU integration is an obvious goal for it (aside from the fact that it is generously funded by the EU of course)...

Sadly, if you point some towards a source of information that doesn't agree with their world view it will just be labelled 'a comic'.

[PhotoLady]

From todays' Cyprus Mail (the online version) taken from Reuters and apparently reported on by The Guardian

The British government expects to lose its legal battle to start the Brexit process without going through parliament, and has drafted versions of a bill to put to lawmakers after the ruling, the Guardian newspaper reported on Tuesday.
The Supreme Court is expected to rule in the next two weeks on whether the government can trigger Article 50 of the European Union’s Lisbon Treaty, the first formal step towards leaving the bloc, without first getting parliament’s approval.
Citing unnamed sources, the Guardian reported that ministers had privately conceded they were very likely to lose the case, and had drawn up at least two versions of a bill to be presented to parliament after the ruling.

Remainder of article through the link below:
http://cyprus-mail.com/2017/01/11/uk-go ... ns-report/

[Conoflex]

The "one line bill" has been on the agenda for a little while now.The filibustering by certain groups has been plain to see ever since the referendum

It is quite extraordinary that all those who were happy to see "Parliamentary sovereignty" handed over by the bucketful to Brussels are now so adamant it should be upheld when the government wants to exercise the royal prerogative to implement the wishes of the people of the UK

If the one line bill is rejected (unlikely because lots of incumbents will be shown the door) we will have to have another general election (hugely damaging to the UK), but the civil service and the judiciary have already shown themselves to be incapable of acting impartially and we could certainly do with a rethink of some of the processes that puts some of these people in a position to thwart the wishes of the majority and undermine the chances of the government getting the best deal for the people who they represent.

The party/constituency political system in the UK is full of compromises and fudges, but if a legally held referendum is called to solve an intractable problem then the party system has to unite behind that result- it is dangerously undemocratic to do otherwise. To suggest the referendum was in some way "illegal" or not legally binding makes Parliament look incompetent. Leaving the EU by definition requires triggering Article 50- that is an "a priori" situation that doesn't really need any further complication or legal "judgement"

[Conoflex]

Quick ps- as early as 6th December the consensus was the Supreme Court was going to rule against the government by a 7-4 majority.

If that is the case either 7 people don't know the law or 4 people don't know the law.

Given that these are the highest judges in the land anything other than unanimous must be a stitch up surely

[Dominic]

It is quite extraordinary that all those who were happy to see "Parliamentary sovereignty" handed over by the bucketful to Brussels are now so adamant it should be upheld when the government wants to exercise the royal prerogative to implement the wishes of the people of the UK

Not as extraordinary as the Brexiters who now find the concept of parliamentary sovereignty such an anathma.

[Conoflex]

I have no problem with Parliamentary sovereignty- in fact I'm all for it, but if they exercise that sovereignty to pass an Act of Parliament to allow an in/out referendum why do they need to be involved in triggering the in/out process

Surely that is now the job of the government and the civil service (because timing may be key) and Parliament should be focusing on the next problematic issue of the day ?

[Dominic]

It is just a matter of process. In fairness, it should be pretty much a formality, unless the MPs want to directly contradict the people who voted for them. But if you want to avoid legal challenges further down the line, you want to make damn sure you have dotted all your 'i's and crossed all your 't's.

[Conoflex]

I agree about covering all the legal eventualities, but if Britain is to get the best deal we can't go washing our dirty laundry in public