Forget gas.. Energy storage is the answer

[mark4007]

Admist the talk of the Aphrodite gas reservoir its worth remembering that the EAC already rejrcts large amounts of renewable energy because it doesnt have the energy storage facilites. This is going to get worse the more roof top PV net metering arrangements are put in place.

Its already cheap and easy to put energy storage facilities in place. such facilities would reduce the emission fines and should reduce the cost of electricity. A far more effictive use of RES funds than providing loans (which could easily be done by banks, perhaps with a state guarantee) to help consumers put more household PV systems in place.

For the scale of the energy "curtailment" (ie renewable energy rejection by EAC) see

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/08/05/ ... in-cyprus/

[sunspot]

This is rather depressing. I have seen no plans to upgrade the grid. When will they start curtailing solar generated by households? And will we know if they do?

[cyprusmax47]

Article like this is scaremongering and will lead people not to invest in PV.
The often mentioned expert's interest is obvious as he works for a battery company...

https://www.andreasprocopiou.com



Here in Cyprus to install battery banks privately together with a PV system on the roof is much too expensive and a medium size battery bank and the different components costs the same like p.e. a 4 kWp system installed. Maybe in the near future these high prices will come down a lot.

Necessary is in Cyprus that EAC installs very quickly a smart, modern transmission and distribution network, with smart meters to be able to detect low or high voltage and unbalanced frequencies in different areas and adjust accordingly.

Also each customer with already a PV system can help if he consumes the produced energy in times when PV generates the most (10AM-2PM)

Further, use of air-cons in Winter for heating or even better heat pumps, will support the network.

Interesting the graphic data, showing how little wind power produces in Cyprus all year long. (even together with biomass)

Max

[Devil]

Interesting the graphic data, showing how little wind power produces in Cyprus all year long. (even together with biomass)

Wind power in Cyprus is a big no-no. Aeolian generation is a non-linear function of wind speed. Between 0 and 4 m/s there is virtually no generation. Depending on the design, it generally requires 10 to 12 m/s for a generator to produce its full output up to about 20 m/s when the blades require feathering to avoid damage. The average wind speed in Cyprus is about 4 m/s, give or take a little for the land profile. The result is that Aeolian generation in Cyprus is insufficient to justify the capital expenditure and maintenance of wind farms; the average practical generation is between 12 and 15% of the generators' capacity. This is not economically viable and the current windfarms are the result of ignorance of the powers that were. (In the Scottish highlands, typical capacity is between 60 and 80%).

In short, wind power is a no-no for Cyprus!

[jeba]

Am I right if I assume that PV- systems will only be stopped from feeding into the EAC grid, but not from being used e.g. for heating your pool or charging your battery?

[jeba]

Here in Cyprus to install battery banks privately together with a PV system on the roof is much too expensive and a medium size battery bank and the different components costs the same like p.e. a 4 kWp system installed. Maybe in the near future these high prices will come down a lot.

Not sure about that. At least in Germany prices for a 12kWp system with battery are already lower than what I paid in 2017 for a 4kWp system without battery: https://tecmaxx.de/12-KW-Photovoltaik-K ... omspeicher
Why should it be materially more expensive in Cyprus, except for shipping costs?

[mark4007]

The cost of batteries are not that much more in cyprus compared with Germany but the economics of their installation is dramatically different.

The net metering arrangement in Cyprus currently makes the installation of a PV system highly profitable for the consumer. I estimate cash payback less than 3-4 years. For some it may be closer to 2 years. If one assumes a life expectancy of 15 years thats over 10 years of profit on the instalation of a system.

I believe the UK and Germany use Feed in tarrifs (FiT) rather than net metering arrangements. Under these systems when the consumer imports electricty they normally pay a retail price and receive a wholesale price when they export electricty. The payback for PV systems in these countries is much longer and the profitabilty much lower. typically consumers in these countries can increase their profitabilty by doing the things suggested by Max (eg using electricty when the sun shines). Whilst battery storage is "expensive" it can generally further increase the profitabilty of the PV system by storing electricy locally and then using that stored electricty rather than exporting fot a price that is much lower than the import cost.

For domestic consumers in cyprus with a net metering arrangement there is little financial incentive to do the things suggested by max and indeed in the case of heat pumps and battery storage they might even be cash flow negative. Max is quite right to point out the wider benefits that such actions will have on the national grid and enviroment but for many (perhaps unlike early adopters) thats not the main reason for installing a PV system.

Cyprus could change its system from a net metering arrangement to a FiT system.. or adopt a hybrid system (say the first 5 years net metering and then a FiT) but this would significantly reduce the profitabilty for consumers and their doesnt appear to be any political moves to do so. In fact quite the opposite.

So, unless the grid is significantly upgraded and the state (or EAC) invests in energy storage, the problem with curtailment will only get worse.

We already are, as a nation, turning the taps off on renewable energy that we already have the capacity to generate. This is currently restricted to larger RES power providers but at some point this may start impacting on domestic consumers with modest PV systems.

[cyprusmax47]

The largest difference between Germany and Cyprus economically, when one installs photovoltaic, is the fact that here in CY we have much more sunshine. In Germany the average one can produce is 850 kWh/year per 1 kWp installed solar modules. In Cyprus twice, with 1750 kWh/y.

As long we have net-metering in CY it makes no sense economically to invest in expensive battery banks. Small batteries (p.e. 5 kW) are like a toy and only good when you have a power cut for emergency. As the lifespan of batteries goes down a lot when you discharge more than 50%, a battery bank should be at least 12 kW to get any benefit in G.

In Germany there is no net-metering, so the customer gets ca 8 c/kWh when exporting electricity. Importing electricity varies a lot between the many providers and times and is more than 40 cent/kWh. So you will not see small PV systems of 3-5 kWp there like we have in Cyprus but rather large ones covering the whole roofs of houses to get any benefit.

Max

[sunspot]

Am I right if I assume that PV- systems will only be stopped from feeding into the EAC grid, but not from being used e.g. for heating your pool or charging your battery?

I think that’s right. But as I understand it, curtailment will mean you can’t accumulate credits for electricity you generate but do not immediately use. We build credits in the summer and use them in the winter. If this ability is restricted (because the grid cannot take our excess energy), the incentive to put panels on your roof will diminish. Good way to slow the rate of installation of new PV panels. Net metering will simply not work as advertised.

[mark4007]

The incentive may be perceived to diminish but there is still a huge incentive.

If you have a suitable roof and are an average (or above) household consumer of electricty in Cyprus it should be a no brainer. I calculate that at present for every 1 euro invested you should have at least 4 euros of savings over the life of the system.

The point of the original post was to highlight the amount of RES energy capacity currently being curtailed (or "wasted") and how this "waste" is increasing. Further increases in roof top PV systems will increase curtailments from large RES producers unless and until we can start to store RES energy.

Curtailment of PV, to reduce the amount of PV being produced, from domestic households is technically not easy for the EAC to do and its not going to happen any time in the near future.

[sunspot]

Thank you for that info, mark4007.

[jeba]

Yesterday I spoke to Greenair and was told that for the foreseeable future the EAC will not be able to switch off your PV-device because they don't have the necessarry technical infrastructure yet.

[cyprusmax47]

Yesterday I spoke to Greenair and was told that for the foreseeable future the EAC will not be able to switch off your PV-device because they don't have the necessarry technical infrastructure yet.

Well, that's exactly what I mentioned in my post above:

"Necessary is in Cyprus that EAC installs very quickly a smart, modern transmission and distribution network, with smart meters to be able to detect low or high voltage and unbalanced frequencies in different areas and adjust accordingly." So it is the smart meters which are missing....

Max

[PolemIan]

Storage is a massive issue.

The studies by Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory consistently show that, in the US for example, the amount of rejected energy is around two thirds. That’s a shed load of energy going to waste. You can play around with the charts on the attached link, the charts for Cyprus, only 2011 and 2017 available, show little change from just over 80%.

I can’t help but think that if as much effort went into balancing energy demand and supply, it would have a far more dramatic effect that messing about with some of the policies that are coming through.

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/commodities/energy

Ian

[clive of payia]

Perhaps the other alternative for Cyprus is to do what Cuba did with their off-shore gas and oil fields. After cracking the crude oil and filtering the gas they fed it directly into their power stations. Each household/citizen/business paid a small monthly maintenance fee and then had a generous free allowance. This would then give plenty of time to refine alternatives to carbon fuels for the future.

The Green lobbyists demanding immediate carbon-free power are asking for massive fuel poverty for all but the very rich and socialist elitists.

[Devil]

Perhaps the other alternative for Cyprus is to do what Cuba did with their off-shore gas and oil fields.

As far as Cyprus is concerned, the question is uniquely on the gas, not on oil. We have spent over a decade sitting on our thumbs, doing nothing. My guess is that it would take more than another decade for anything to be completed, and then it would be too late because A) we would not be allowed to use gas, because of the emissions and B) nobody would want to buy 'our' gas. If push comes to shove, and if the push was rapid, it would be possible to run a compressed natural gas narrow bore pipe from, say, Aphrodite to one power station, as a temporary measure. I don't think the EU would subsidise it, as they would have done 10 years ago, after the question arose.

[mark4007]

The Green lobbyists demanding immediate carbon-free power are asking for massive fuel poverty for all but the very rich and socialist elitists.

I am not aware of any green lobbyists demanding immediate carbon-free power.

What is being advocated by many is choosing to phase out fossil fuels by use of renewable energy. That used to because of the desire to reduce the impact of climate change. However, due to the increase in the cost of fossil fuels and the reduction in costs of renewables (in particular solar) and energy storage ( in particular batteries) it now makes economic sense to do so.

Cyprus is fortunate to have a climate where solar energy is abundant and could be easily tapped. Cyprus does not have to be a leader in these fields for its residents to be able to enjoy the economic benefits.

[mark4007]

Storage is a massive issue.

The studies by Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory consistently show that, in the US for example, the amount of rejected energy is around two thirds. That’s a shed load of energy going to waste. You can play around with the charts on the attached link, the charts for Cyprus, only 2011 and 2017 available, show little change from just over 80%.

I can’t help but think that if as much effort went into balancing energy demand and supply, it would have a far more dramatic effect that messing about with some of the policies that are coming through.

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/commodities/energy

Ian

Interesting charts.. "rejected energy" appears to be energy lost on conversion. When fossil fuel energy are converted to use the majority of the energy created is lost. For, example internal combustion engines lose a stagering amount of energy (over 70%) is lost.

For largely fossil fuel dependent economies the charts show which methods of converting fossil fuels into useable energy are more efficient.

The charts also show the largely untapped potential of renewable energy.both both worldwide and in Cyprus.