Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

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Dominic
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Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Dominic »

Is anybody else a bit appalled to hear that a Canadian Secret Service Member might have smuggled Shamima Begum (a 15 year old British school girl) into Syria?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62726954

Shamima Begum, who fled the UK and joined the Islamic State group, was smuggled into Syria by an intelligence agent for Canada.

Files seen by the BBC show he claimed to have shared Ms Begum's passport details with Canada, and smuggled other Britons to fight for IS.

Ms Begum's lawyers are challenging the removal of her citizenship, arguing she was a trafficking victim.

For full story see above link.
_______________


This has some background onto how the Security Services operate these days:

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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by wantoosoon »

It doesn't sway my opinion of her case. I'm totally against stripping people of their citizenship for any reason, except for fraudulent applications in the case of naturalised citizens. It should be a fundamental right, not something to be removed as punishment. Whatever the person has done, the state should defend their rights as it would any other citizen. To revoke this woman's citizenship and not allow her to return to appeal the decision, without her even having been convicted of a crime, is arbitrary and authoritarian. There's a lack of fairness in having this extra level of punishment available for those who have (or could have) another citizenship, but not for those with only one. It's inequality enshrined in law.

There's also the issue of sending criminals abroad where they may not be punished or rehabilitated, and would be free to commit other crimes. The state has a responsibility to keep people safe from criminals, but in these cases it's shirking that responsibility. Is it a good idea to have dangerous people who now resent the UK wandering around freely?

(For what it's worth, I think Shamima Begum is a bigoted and obnoxious person, an unrepentant terrorist sympathiser who may well belong behind bars, but I still think the UK government is in the wrong.)
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by 71 Trans Am »

She chose her camp and knew exactly what she was doing when she went and saying she was only a child doesn’t cut it, she supported and lived with the worst terrorists of our time – aided and abetted their actions and had no problem with them or what they did she said she watched be-headings and it didn’t faze her – Just an animal – The stripping of her citizenship was to make sure she could never return easily if at all – This is not the sort of person I would want living anywhere near me or my family – Let her rot wherever she is now – Unless of course you are prepared to take her in and rehabilitate her and watch her 24 hours a day – Do gooders will always have a go at the government whatever decision they make on our behalf personally I am pleased they have made it difficult for her return – If she ever got back they would jail her or she would have to have police protection for the rest of her days – more taxpayers money down the drain – so stripping her citizenship was the way to go
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by baxi »

no doubt she will get back into the uk when the lawyers have started her legal aid , ? .
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Dominic »

Nothing to do with being a do-gooder or not, but given that she was born in the UK she is the UK's problem.

But that wasn't my point. I don't think anybody considers her a nice person, but why is the State actively shipping these people out to hotspots? If they know who is doing the people smuggling, shouldn't they stop it there?
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by 71 Trans Am »

I understand the point your making but look at this governments track record - They never proactively do anything until it becomes a major problem for the UK - Look at the current migrant situation from France - We all knew a few years ago that all of those people in camps on the french coast were going to get to the UK at some point and the government are not trying hard enough to stop them thousands a month are making it over and they must know by now who the smugglers are but nothing has been done - The french would be happy if they all managed to get to the UK
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Dominic »

Let's face it, the British would be happy if they all wanted to travel up to Scotland and get a boat to Iceland!
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by 71 Trans Am »

It’s never going to happen – they got to the worldwide honeypot mission accomplished – we can’t get our energy bills paid by this government but they get free houses free heat free food free everything – It will all end in tears this time, the British people are fed up now – all on strike because they can’t get a living wage
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Kili01 »

There are enough problems for the new PM to deal with when he/she takes office next week.
The sheer number of refugees and asylum seekers already here in UK are in danger of destabilizing the UK at a time when it is short of funds to even look after its own nationals.
Its high time to take every possible action to stop more coming and to repatriate any whose applications have failed, by any legal means.
Not in favour of repatriating terrorists like Shamima Begum or any others of this ilk whose actions could amount to treason. They should be made an example of.

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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Dominic »

Kili01 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:44 pm
The sheer number of refugees and asylum seekers already here in UK are in danger of destabilizing the UK at a time when it is short of funds to even look after its own nationals.
How many refugees are there in the UK then? Sounds to me like you are looking in the wrong direction if you want somebody to blame for the state of the UK.
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Jimgward »

She was under 18 and by International law, she was trafficked. Whether she's a complete horror or not, she's the UK's problem and taking citizenship off her and not accepting responsibility is appalling. She should be in jail in the UK, if foud guilty.
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Poppy »

No Jim she was not trafficked out of the UK. Her and her friends made their own way completely voluntarily to Turkey. If they were trafficked by the Canadian then that was in Turkey. She is lying and manipulative and I would venture to suggest a murderer in that 3 of her babies died - there are plenty of other children surviving in these camps and she lost 3! Her Dutch husband when asked why he married such a young girl claimed that he initially was not interested and thought she was too young but she was insistent= who knows here who is telling the truth but she is a very dangerous young woman who has no right to British citizenship - may she rot in hell!
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by gerryg »

The UK has not breached international law by removing citizenship from her, since she has not been made stateless. It was held by the Supreme Court that she held dual nationality (Bangledesh) through her parents.

Not that its really relevant in the light of the above but if she was tried in the Uk what would be the charge? A member of Isis? Perhaps not. Look at the Landy case.

We know that the most appalling violence was carried out. Beheading, burning alive , and drowning to mention just a few. But gathering evidence that would lead to a conviction in a Uk court is challenging to say the least. There have been some successes but relatively few compared to the number of atrocities.

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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Jim B »

gerryg wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:04 pm The UK has not breached international law by removing citizenship from her, since she has not been made stateless. It was held by the Supreme Court that she held dual nationality (Bangledesh) through her parents.

Not that its really relevant in the light of the above but if she was tried in the Uk what would be the charge? A member of Isis? Perhaps not. Look at the Landy case.

We know that the most appalling violence was carried out. Beheading, burning alive , and drowning to mention just a few. But gathering evidence that would lead to a conviction in a Uk court is challenging to say the least. There have been some successes but relatively few compared to the number of atrocities.

gerryg
The Bangladesh government said she is not a Bangladeshi Citizen and it's illegal under International Law (whether you like it or not) to make a citizen stateless.
What she has done or hasn't done is all pure conjecture at the moment and no proof either way to say she participated in these acts. Until she is tried in a proper court of law she's neither guilty or innocent, it's only the final decision of Javid who is after all only a Banker, not an expert in law.
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by gerryg »

As I thought I made clear the Supreme Court in the Uk determined that she holds dual nationality ( with Bangladesh) through her parents. What the Bangladesh Government have to say about the matter is neither here nor there. It is or was a matter for a Uk court .
I have no idea if any evidence of any wrongdoing exists. And this is the problem with these types of cases . Evidence of wrongdoing that will stand up in court is hard to come by.

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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Jim B »

I believe it's everything to do with the Bangladeshi government whether a person is one of their citizens or not.
The recent BBC report stated the Supreme Court refused her entry to the UK to appeal due to Security Issues and she has to appeal from Syria which is not possible due to the refusal of the Kurds to allow court officials access to the camp.
The decision is political, not Judicial and that's what's frightening; thin end of the wedge.
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Poppy »

Jim B - a bit of a silly statement saying that Sajid Javid was a Banker and not an expert in Law!! I can assure you that it was stated at the time that he had of course sought much legal advice before making his decision and of course the Courts have upheld that decision!! I would have thought that they know more than you or I !!
Last edited by Poppy on Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by gerryg »

The Bangledesh Government can decide what it wants. Its totally irrelevant in terms of this case. British Courts determine cases on British Law. Not on French Law German Law or Bangladesh law.
And if you are going to argue that the Supreme court decides matters on political issues rather than points of law what on earth would be the point of giving the woman a trial in the uk if courts are that biased.

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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Jim B »

Poppy
The decision was political to please the mob and it won't be the first time a minister has ignored legal advice and made a decision to please the flog em, hang em brigade. So not a silly statement, just an honest one.

Gerryg

It is against Internation Law to make a person stateless and the UK has broken that law if she does not have Bangladeshi Citizenship as confirmed by the Bangladesh Government The Supeme Court has said she can contest their decision but cannot enter the UK to do so, so it is not as cut and dried as you suggest. The Kurdish authorities will not provide permission for the case to be reviewed in the prison camp where she's held so the case is presently at an impasse rather than being decided in the British Governments favour.
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Re: Shamima Begum: arch villain or unwitting patsy?

Post by Firefly »

As she married a Dutchman, surely she can apply to live in Holland. Or maybe they won't have her either.

Personally my feeling is that she should never be allowed back into the UK, she forfeited that right when she became a terrorist, in my eyes.
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