House Of Lords

[Mark]

Lynn.
I selfishly speak from a personal perspective

I have lived in Cyprus for many years, pay tax on my occupational pension, spend most of my income here, which supports the local economy. I am sure this is no different to most UK immigrants.
But... From my perspective, why should UK immigrants take precedence over me? They will have the weight of the U.K. And the welfare state behind them, that does not yet apply to me in Cyprus. My future in Cyprus may be in jeopardy, many say unlikely, but there cannot be any guarantees.
Why should the UK jeopardise my future by guaranteeing UK immigrants without looking after expats in tandem?


The European Union has stated categorically that no deals can take place prior to article 50. Why should the UK state its position when the EU will not?

[Steve - SJD]

There is enough to discuss when the negotiations finally start so I think this move will be a sign of goodwill.
I would have thought that EU nations would be more likely to keep the status quo with regards to British nationals
if they know the same applies to their own people in the UK.

It will assist businesses by giving them certainty regarding the employment of their current staff from the EU.
It will also give security to those who came to work in good faith in the UK.

EU citizens already in the UK and Brits already in EU countries should not be used as negotiating chips and we can set an example that the EU can follow.

Cheers

Steve

[ApusApus]

I'm with Huds on this, a negotiation is a "fight" plain & simple & as such you do not go into one knowingly with your hand tied behind your back! That's just stupid .............


Shane

[Jim B]

Like the EU Citizens in the UK I am living a life of uncertainty and it is all down to those who voted for Brexit. Those who voted Brexit appear to have no compunction in using people, through no fault their own as hostages to gain a position we already held; the mind boggles.

As for Admirals and Generals, to say they have a better view on life than the ordinary man in the street is laughable and I really think you actually believe your comments Royal. As a bunch of civvies we often run workforces of up to twenty thousand and many of us are just artisans who worked our way up; there are plenty of Admirals who have never commanded a ship just as there are many Generals who have never commanded a Brigade.

Jim

[geoffreys]

There is enough to discuss when the negotiations finally start so I think this move will be a sign of goodwill.
I would have thought that EU nations would be more likely to keep the status quo with regards to British nationals
if they know the same applies to their own people in the UK.

It will assist businesses by giving them certainty regarding the employment of their current staff from the EU.
It will also give security to those who came to work in good faith in the UK.

EU citizens already in the UK and Brits already in EU countries should not be used as negotiating chips and we can set an example that the EU can follow.

Cheers

Steve

Are we to take it then, Steve, that you would support the House of Lords amendment to the Article 50 (trigger) bill?
Yes or No?
Geoff.

[cyprusgrump]

I just don't see how using people as pawns on deals that will take years to make, is heartless on people who've made their futures elsewhere within the EU...they should be safeguarded first...then go on to the deals or whatever...,people are NOT for sale...

There is enough to discuss when the negotiations finally start so I think this move will be a sign of goodwill.
I would have thought that EU nations would be more likely to keep the status quo with regards to British nationals

Like the EU Citizens in the UK I am living a life of uncertainty and it is all down to those who voted for Brexit. Those who voted Brexit appear to have no compunction in using people, through no fault their own as hostages to gain a position we already held; the mind boggles.

It is your beloved EU that turned down an early bilateral deal on expats from the UK government...

This could have and should have all been sorted by now. It is not the UK government holding these people 'hostage', 'pawns' or needing to show 'goodwill', it is the 'heartless' EU.

[Jim B]

The EU and UK cannot start negotiations on Brexit terms until Article 50 is actioned; it is very simple in that the EU is following the rules and the UK Government want to do it their own way as usual.

Jim

[cyprusgrump]

The EU and UK cannot start negotiations on Brexit terms until Article 50 is actioned; it is very simple in that the EU is following the rules and the UK Government want to do it their own way as usual.

Jim

But, but, but everybody is complaining that we must unilaterally put something in place before negotiations start...

I doubt if there is any actual rule that would have stopped a bilateral agreement being put in place immediately. It just needed goodwill on both sides. The UK had it - the EU wanted to play hard ball...

[MacManiac]

There appear to be two school of thought about negotiations. Is it a hard-fought battle with knees and elbows, or is it a reasoned discussion where there is "give and take" on both sides?

I must say that I believe that any government should put the welfare of its own citizens first, above and beyond other people who happen to have chosen a country as their place of residence. However it is how you approach such discussions or negotiations that seems to be crucial. If the UK had acted unilaterally and generously to confirm the rights of EU citizens living legitimately in the UK, then the goodwill would have been immense. But once the politicians on both sides of the Brexit divide get to rant about the EU, then goodwill must be lost.

Nigel Farage in the EU parliament insulting all and sundry with his triumphalist ranting, the less than intelligent conduct of Boris Johnson, the authoritarian approach of the government, and the hate-filled newspapers ... all of these things would be guaranteed to put most peoples' backs up. You can just imagine the EU politicians' irritation and anger at this British approach to a very delicate position.

Politicians of whatever nationality cannot be seen to lose face. And, being just about to open Pandora's Box by the end of March, both British and European politicians are rapidly getting to the stage where they cannot modify their stances, because to do so, they will lose face. It is all so sad and unnecessary and, I fear, will end in tears.

[geoffreys]

There appear to be two school of thought about negotiations. Is it a hard-fought battle with knees and elbows, or is it a reasoned discussion where there is "give and take" on both sides?

I must say that I believe that any government should put the welfare of its own citizens first, above and beyond other people who happen to have chosen a country as their place of residence. However it is how you approach such discussions or negotiations that seems to be crucial. If the UK had acted unilaterally and generously to confirm the rights of EU citizens living legitimately in the UK, then the goodwill would have been immense. But once the politicians on both sides of the Brexit divide get to rant about the EU, then goodwill must be lost.

Nigel Farage in the EU parliament insulting all and sundry with his triumphalist ranting, the less than intelligent conduct of Boris Johnson, the authoritarian approach of the government, and the hate-filled newspapers ... all of these things would be guaranteed to put most peoples' backs up. You can just imagine the EU politicians' irritation and anger at this British approach to a very delicate position.

Politicians of whatever nationality cannot be seen to lose face. And, being just about to open Pandora's Box by the end of March, both British and European politicians are rapidly getting to the stage where they cannot modify their stances, because to do so, they will lose face. It is all so sad and unnecessary and, I fear, will end in tears.

Yes, but WHOSE tears??
Geoff.

[Royal]

Like the EU Citizens in the UK I am living a life of uncertainty and it is all down to those who voted for Brexit. Those who voted Brexit appear to have no compunction in using people, through no fault their own as hostages to gain a position we already held; the mind boggles.

Wow! Poor Jim!

As for Admirals and Generals, to say they have a better view on life than the ordinary man in the street is laughable and I really think you actually believe your comments Royal.

Jim, please do not misquote me or at least read what I say before replying. I'm usually very careful with the words I choose, and I did NOT say this. Re-read my post and you will see what I DID say. Oh, and of course I do believe my comments. Do you not believe yours? What a strange thing to say on a Forum...

As a bunch of civvies we often run workforces of up to twenty thousand and many of us are just artisans who worked our way up;

My original post (which you clearly have clearly chosen to ignore), included "a bunch of civvies" as you so eloquently put it. I said "retired Industrialists, senior members of the Judiciary, senior members of the Clergy (Bishops etc), senior figures in Education and a smattering of senior politicians". I of course recognise that it is not only military leaders who command large workforces. You really must stop misquoting me.

there are plenty of Admirals who have never commanded a ship just as there are many Generals who have never commanded a Brigade

This is simply untrue. False. Fabricated. Concocted.

Opinions are one thing, but if you want to use facts, please make sure they are correct. This is not.

[Steve - SJD]

Did anyone actually read the amendment? I think what it says may well be different to what people think it says:

It says that within three months of article 50 being triggered, ministers must bring forward proposals to ensure that EU citizens legally resident in the UK when the Brexit Act is passed, maintain all their rights, including the ability to acquire permanent residence for those who have not been in the UK for the required five years.

So that's within three months of negotiations starting - which gives time for it to be included within the discussions at
the start plus it's "proposals" that they have to bring forward (some wiggle room there). It does not convey any rights immediately - only when we finally leave and subject to the proposals.

One of the main pillars of Brexit was apparently taking back control from the EU so I thought these early examples of just that would be more widely welcomed.



Cheers

Steve

[geoffreys]

Did anyone actually read the amendment? I think what it says may well be different to what people think it says:

It says that within three months of article 50 being triggered, ministers must bring forward proposals to ensure that EU citizens legally resident in the UK when the Brexit Act is passed, maintain all their rights, including the ability to acquire permanent residence for those who have not been in the UK for the required five years.

So that's within three months of negotiations starting - which gives time for it to be included within the discussions at
the start plus it's "proposals" that they have to bring forward (some wiggle room there). It does not convey any rights immediately - only when we finally leave and subject to the proposals.

One of the main pillars of Brexit was apparently taking back control from the EU so I thought these early examples of just that would be more widely welcomed.



Cheers

Steve

From which I take it that you answer to my earlier question about do you support that amendment must be "yes".
As a fellow British Expat I would have hoped you would not support it. For pretty obvious reasons.
Geoff.

[Mark]

Over 90k signatures, looks like the 100 k will be reached

[Jim B]

And just to support Royals last comment...sorry Jim stick to what you know, I do not think I have seen such an ill informed post from you...

Hello Hudswell

Of course I will have bow to your superior knowledge of the Military, as you well know I've spent my working life in civvy street but like you I read articles which may or may not be true like this one below which appears to be supported by many and was published in the Daily Mail, the right wingers bible . I've also read comments relating to more Admirals than Ships several times over the years and took that at face value as well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... shers.html

Royal

I apologise if you believe I misquoted you, that wasn't my intention. I'm of the opinion that class or position doesn't equal intelligence and that is what I was clumsily trying to state.

Jim

[Firefly]

Mark

Any chance you could post a link to the petition please ?

Jackie

[Mark]

Mark

Any chance you could post a link to the petition please ?

Jackie

Apologies Jackie, am on my I Pad and not sure how to post a link, however, the petition is called "replace the House of Lords with a publically elected body"

Hopefully someone may post the link

Currently at 99,800 signatures.

Mark.

[Firefly]

Mark

Thank your for your reply, I'll 'Google' it.

Jackie

[Firefly]

I have just added my signature, total well over 100.000 now.

Jackie

[geoffreys]

I have just added my signature, total well over 100.000 now.

Jackie

Could you please post the link?
Thanks,
Geoff.