UKIP, it's all over!

[Dominic]

I just pointed out that if you believe "those who resort to personal insults have lost the arguement..." (or even argument), that must surely apply equally to those that attack others on the board as those that make personal attacks on David Beckham.

Ah with that I would agree. If the strength of your argument consists solely of insults without any actual meat, then you have indeed lost the argument.

[Dominic]

Here's Farage saying he meant that businesses should be able to favour home nationals, as opposed to giving the job to the candidate who is
better qualified for it. If that isn't promoting racism, what is it?

It should surely be down to a business owner to decide who to employ...?

An astute business owner will surely employ the best candidate for the job be it a local, forriner, black, white, yellow, male, female, straight, trans, etc...?

A business owner that discriminates against any of the above because of his/her own personal prejudices will surely lose out to the more competitive business that chooses the best candidates? Also, customers are likely to shun a business that is known to be discriminatory...

Sadly, if you have anti-discrimination laws you eventually end up with quotas with businesses forced to employ a certain number of locals, forriner, black, white, yellow, male, female, straight, trans, etc... Rather than the best employee for their business.

And of course you end up with lots of taxpayer's money spent on policing anti-discrimination laws.

You also end up with the ghastly situation where a cake shop is prosecuted for not baking a cake which has a message that their strong religious beliefs disagree with.

So no, not racist...

If you don't think that that is racist then there really is no point trying to debate the topic with you any more.

[geoffreys]

Definition of racism: "the belief that one race is superior to another".
When has Mr Farage indicated that is what he believes?
He has not, because he is not a racist.
What he has said is that jobs in UK should go to UK Nationals rather than to immigrants. That is being a Nationalist, not a racist.
I happen to agree with him, Donald Trump holds similar views in respect of American jobs.
I see nothing wrong at all in such protectionism.
BTW, Mr Farage IS still a UKIP Member, just not the Leader of it.
Geoff.

[Dominic]

Actually this is the definition of racism, according to the OED:

Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
‘a programme to combat racism’

1.1 The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
‘theories of racism’

The definition of nationalism on the other hand, is:

Patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
‘an early consciousness of nationalism and pride’

1.1 An extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
‘playing with right-wing nationalism’
More example sentences
1.2 Advocacy of political independence for a particular country.
‘Scottish nationalism’

The 1.1 definition directly links extreme nationalism with racism (as opposed to linking all forms of nationalism).

Now, is employing a bad British builder instead of a good Polish builder patriotic, nationalistic, or racist?
Is a sign in a boarding house "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs" patriotic, nationalistic, or racist?

NB: I am not for one minute stating that British builders are worse than Polish builders.

And what about the NHS? If we employed only British people it would collapse in a day.

I do hope all your goods are British Geoff, otherwise you wouldn't be a very good Nationalist.

[geoffreys]

Actually this is the definition of racism, according to the OED:

Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
‘a programme to combat racism’

1.1 The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
‘theories of racism’

The definition of nationalism on the other hand, is:

Patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
‘an early consciousness of nationalism and pride’

1.1 An extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
‘playing with right-wing nationalism’
More example sentences
1.2 Advocacy of political independence for a particular country.
‘Scottish nationalism’

The 1.1 definition directly links extreme nationalism with racism (as opposed to linking all forms of nationalism).

Now, is employing a bad British builder instead of a good Polish builder patriotic, nationalistic, or racist?
Is a sign in a boarding house "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs" patriotic, nationalistic, or racist?

NB: I am not for one minute stating that British builders are worse than Polish builders.

And what about the NHS? If we employed only British people it would collapse in a day.

I do hope all your goods are British Geoff, otherwise you wouldn't be a very good Nationalist.

Well the NHS does need immigrants to staff it, and nobody is suggesting otherwise' that is fine with me provided
those Brits who want those jobs and are available get them first.
I buy the best value for money goods, if British I buy them.
What I want to see is British manufacturing prosper again, rather than letting the Chinese dominate.
That way I suspect many more people will be buying "Made in Britain" goods, and the UK economy will grow, and
my State Pension will be secure, and my offspring's jobs secure.

Geoff.

[Lynsab]

It's not protectionism Geoff it's incitement, it's trying to whip up hate, it's trying to divide...

Farages racism has been obvious to many from the start....his age old racist claim linking migrants to sexual assault...he believes racial discrimination in the workplace should be legalised. Not just discrimination on the grounds of nationality, but on the grounds of colour.

Farage isn't the leader of UKIP, he's a nothing, he's after a knighthood even though he claims to be anti establishment.... if he left his MEP job at least he may gain some credilbity with some, but he won't do that when he can ruin things for the British people a bit more and still take the money....I see he wants Carswell out now for quashing his peerage claims, and expects Aaron banks to be elected.... that's the only UKIP MP soon to be gone then....

The OP was IMO correct it's all over for UKIP....

[geoffreys]

It's not protectionism Geoff it's incitement, it's trying to whip up hate, it's trying to divide...

Farages racism has been obvious to many from the start....his age old racist claim linking migrants to sexual assault...he believes racial discrimination in the workplace should be legalised. Not just discrimination on the grounds of nationality, but on the grounds of colour.

Farage isn't the leader of UKIP, he's a nothing, he's after a knighthood even though he claims to be anti establishment.... if he left his MEP job at least he may gain some credilbity with some, but he won't do that when he can ruin things for the British people a bit more and still take the money....I see he wants Carswell out now for quashing his peerage claims, and expects Aaron banks to be elected.... that's the only UKIP MP soon to be gone then....

The OP was IMO correct it's all over for UKIP....

Oh dear, you do have a massive chip on your shoulder Lyn.
You are definitely in the right place - back in the UK.
I think your above comments about Nigel Farage amount to libel because they just are not true.
Anyway, as you are not a UKIP supporter, who would you vote for?
Corbyn's Party or Mrs May's Party?
Geoff.

[Pete G]

So you're suggesting that the increase in reports of hate crime were not true and it was just the complaints about the poster that increased numbers??

No, I'm asserting that the situation is a combination of the two things with a few extra factors thrown in, as is verifiable by the empirical evidence, and the [sometimes reluctant] statements of the reporting authorities. In Essex for example the police have said that there was not a significant increase in reported incidents, and the incidence of proven cases was actually continuing its general downward trend. The Met admitted a large increase in reported incidents, but pointed out that a significant number were complaints against UKIP material for which successful prosecution would require a gross distortion of the law and that the increase in complaints almost in their entirety, were nowhere even remotely close to prosecutable. Similar comments have been made by Greater Manchester, Cheshire, Derbyshire, and Bedfordshire Police authorities.

[Pete G]

Personally I wouldn't have said the poster in itself was racist rather his usual attempt at shock tactics to try and grab attention. However this approach is dangerous - it creates a them and us situation builds resentment and creates division in the wider public. When you repeatedly wind people up with rhetoric, distort facts and reinforce a message that the country is at breaking point then you shouldn't be surprised if the consequences are that some of your followers do actually break

I find it interesting that you consider representations of reality as shocking, and then assert this is a bad thing. I presume you wouldn't consider the pro-immigration presentation of infant corpses in the same way? The very function of this sort of advertising is to demolish those protections that proponents of a particular point don't want to consider in order to maintain a cogent worldview. Pictures of the lungs of smokers, aborted foetuses, people drowning at sea [even the demonstrably staged ones], all rely on exactly this principle. Seems to me this must either be universally bad or not, and not dependant on whether you agree with the sentiment of the advertising.

Rather more dangerous I think is the assertion that how Farage's more extreme followers react to his position is somehow Farage's direct responsibility. I'm not suggesting it is untenable, just that if you are asserting it you have to be universally happy with the results. Is Corbyn a hooligan because his supporters spit at and assault delegates to the Tory conference? Are Evangelical leaders terrorists because of the bombing of abortion clinics and the murder of doctors by their followers? Is the Pope genocidal and responsible for the bloody role played by his priests in the Rwanda massacres? PETA for carbombing scientists? How about Muslim leaders for London, Paris, Brussels, etc., etc., etc.

I'm afraid I don't really understand what you mean by distorted facts. Statements are either factual or not, the interpretation is always up for debate, but facts are surely morally and politically neutral. If you are saying he presents facts that seem to contravene your worldview that that seems to be a problem for your worldview, and if you are saying 'facts' are actually lies then it would seem to be a simple matter just to refute them. If you don’t like the assertions he makes from those facts then make stronger ones using the same facts.

More importantly if it is your case that the UK is not in the middle of an immigration crisis, that increasingly large numbers of immigrants are easily absorbed, especially wholly dependant immigrants, without any noticeable effect on public services, that Blair’s mass immigration strategy has not already had a massively detrimental effect on UK society, and the facts reveal that people who wish to reduce immigration are merely ill informed bigots and xenophobes, then you should feel at complete liberty to refute them with facts, rather than an appeal to emotion, and an assertion of moral superiority

[Dominic]

It's not protectionism Geoff it's incitement, it's trying to whip up hate, it's trying to divide...

Farages racism has been obvious to many from the start....his age old racist claim linking migrants to sexual assault...he believes racial discrimination in the workplace should be legalised. Not just discrimination on the grounds of nationality, but on the grounds of colour.

Farage isn't the leader of UKIP, he's a nothing, he's after a knighthood even though he claims to be anti establishment.... if he left his MEP job at least he may gain some credilbity with some, but he won't do that when he can ruin things for the British people a bit more and still take the money....I see he wants Carswell out now for quashing his peerage claims, and expects Aaron banks to be elected.... that's the only UKIP MP soon to be gone then....

The OP was IMO correct it's all over for UKIP....

Oh dear, you do have a massive chip on your shoulder Lyn.
You are definitely in the right place - back in the UK.
I think your above comments about Nigel Farage amount to libel because they just are not true.
Anyway, as you are not a UKIP supporter, who would you vote for?
Corbyn's Party or Mrs May's Party?
Geoff.

Which does beg the question, why aren't you living in the UK, if you are such a Nationalist?

[Lynsab]

Oh Dominic please...don't wish Geoff on the UK....I promise I'll be good from now on

Btw Geoff much as I avoid your nonsense mostly, although it's difficult as you troll me often ( we also live close to each other in Cyprus...that's another story) I sometimes cannot ignore your odd remarks so against my better judgement...here goes...

What?

[smudger]

Please, please can people include the name of the poster in their copied quotes!!! It's so hard to relate these anonymous quotes to the thread, particularly if the original post is a couple of pages back!!!

[smudger]

Lynsab, for one who supposedly 'retired' in a huff and tantrum from PP due to the wholly non-existent "personal comments" you incorrectly assigned to me, you're doing an amazing job of your own version of rude and insulting comments and aspersions on here.

Time for a final retirement perhaps?

Silly me

[Mark]

Lynsab, for one who supposedly 'retired' in a huff and tantrum from PP due to the wholly non-existent "personal comments" you incorrectly assigned to me, you're doing an amazing job of your own version of rude and insulting comments and aspersions on here.

Time for a final retirement perhaps?

Silly me

No, no no!

This forum would not be the Same without postings by Lynn, Geoff et al, keep em coming!

[smudger]

Mark I think you need to lie down in a darkened room!

For several hours!

[cyprusgrump]

Please, please can people include the name of the poster in their copied quotes!!! It's so hard to relate these anonymous quotes to the thread, particularly if the original post is a couple of pages back!!!

I think it depends which 'theme' you are using for your forum viewing - one includes it and the other doesn't...

[Mark]

Mark I think you need to lie down in a darkened room!

For several hours!

Yawn, am now awake after my snooze, still hasn't changed my opinion.

Someone put the light on!

[Steve - SJD]

Personally I wouldn't have said the poster in itself was racist rather his usual attempt at shock tactics to try and grab attention. However this approach is dangerous - it creates a them and us situation builds resentment and creates division in the wider public. When you repeatedly wind people up with rhetoric, distort facts and reinforce a message that the country is at breaking point then you shouldn't be surprised if the consequences are that some of your followers do actually break

I find it interesting that you consider representations of reality as shocking, and then assert this is a bad thing. I presume you wouldn't consider the pro-immigration presentation of infant corpses in the same way?

Well I did not say I found it shocking and yes I don't like to see photos of infant corpses - again used to shock and grab attention. The way a photo is used, the context and the general narrative will also determine how it is received.

Rather more dangerous I think is the assertion that how Farage's more extreme followers react to his position is somehow Farage's direct responsibility. I'm not suggesting it is untenable, just that if you are asserting it you have to be universally happy with the results. Is Corbyn a hooligan because his supporters spit at and assault delegates to the Tory conference? Are Evangelical leaders terrorists because of the bombing of abortion clinics and the murder of doctors by their followers? Is the Pope genocidal and responsible for the bloody role played by his priests in the Rwanda massacres? PETA for carbombing scientists? How about Muslim leaders for London, Paris, Brussels, etc., etc., etc.

Surely the direct responsibility lies with those perpetrating acts - what I actually said you shouldn't be surprised if
the consequences are that some of your followers do actually break. In the examples you cited and other leaders
then of course there is a responsibility to use appropriate language.

I'm afraid I don't really understand what you mean by distorted facts.

Ok

More importantly if it is your case that the UK is not in the middle of an immigration crisis, that increasingly large numbers of immigrants are easily absorbed, especially wholly dependant immigrants, without any noticeable effect on public services, that Blair’s mass immigration strategy has not already had a massively detrimental effect on UK society, and the facts reveal that people who wish to reduce immigration are merely ill informed bigots and xenophobes, then you should feel at complete liberty to refute them with facts, rather than an appeal to emotion, and an assertion of moral superiority

Lol - to question whether that is the case I am trying to put forward you would have to base it on something I have
written. Can you point me to that as I am not aware of discussing those issues or was it just intended for you to try and make an extreme point?

Cheers

Steve

[geoffreys]

It's not protectionism Geoff it's incitement, it's trying to whip up hate, it's trying to divide...

Farages racism has been obvious to many from the start....his age old racist claim linking migrants to sexual assault...he believes racial discrimination in the workplace should be legalised. Not just discrimination on the grounds of nationality, but on the grounds of colour.

Farage isn't the leader of UKIP, he's a nothing, he's after a knighthood even though he claims to be anti establishment.... if he left his MEP job at least he may gain some credilbity with some, but he won't do that when he can ruin things for the British people a bit more and still take the money....I see he wants Carswell out now for quashing his peerage claims, and expects Aaron banks to be elected.... that's the only UKIP MP soon to be gone then....

The OP was IMO correct it's all over for UKIP....

Oh dear, you do have a massive chip on your shoulder Lyn.
You are definitely in the right place - back in the UK.
I think your above comments about Nigel Farage amount to libel because they just are not true.
Anyway, as you are not a UKIP supporter, who would you vote for?
Corbyn's Party or Mrs May's Party?
Geoff.

Which does beg the question, why aren't you living in the UK, if you are such a Nationalist?

I didn't know that was a pre-requisite!
I am a UK nationalist wherever I live.
Lyn, however, is not and she now lives in the UK.
Funny old world at times isn't it Dominic!?

Geoff.

[Pete G]

Lol - to question whether that is the case I am trying to put forward you would have to base it on something I have
written. Can you point me to that as I am not aware of discussing those issues or was it just intended for you to try and make an extreme point?

Cheers

Steve

Not at all. You did say that Farage was being inflammatory and distorting facts, and that his position was both wrong and immoral. I was inviting you to say, at least some of those things on that basis.

It seems, to me at least, that the constant attacks on Farage can [only?] be validated because Farage's position is inaccurate, or accurate but inconsequentional, and I was hoping you would clarify which you felt was the case.