From what I remember, the whole country was divided over the issue of leaving the EU, both before and after the referendum, The govt, the political parties, and the ordinary citizens..
It is now thought that the Russians may have or were also trying to influence the result of the referendum. The latter for their own reasons. The actual results of the Poll were split, 48% in favour of remaining
52% in favour of leaving.
* So the current mess the country is in surely stems from this?
The conservatives were mainly in favour of remaining in the EU as was Jeremy Corbyn.
Why certain people seek to vilify those people who voted to remain as we were, distresses me. Now looking at the alternative scenario if the UK leaves the EU without a proper agreement which safeguards the future viability and prosperity of our country with regard to trade agreements with the EU, allows the City of London financial sector to continue to operate from the UK, and allows the free movement of EU citizens in and out of the UK, the future looks very uncertain. A bad Brexit may leave us and our children worse off that we were before it.
Dee
No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Dee
There are those who vilify people who voted to leave also, but we must move on. The EU will never agree to our terms, they will make it as hard as possible for the British, because the lid will be back on the honey pot.
There are always the conspiracy theories, the Russians apparently influenced the presidential vote, and now it's Brexit, more scaremongering. They didn't influence me or my family, My husband and I, our Daughters and Son, and my Granddaughter all voted for Brexit. Three generations sick of rule by the EU, make of that what you will.
Jackie
There are those who vilify people who voted to leave also, but we must move on. The EU will never agree to our terms, they will make it as hard as possible for the British, because the lid will be back on the honey pot.
There are always the conspiracy theories, the Russians apparently influenced the presidential vote, and now it's Brexit, more scaremongering. They didn't influence me or my family, My husband and I, our Daughters and Son, and my Granddaughter all voted for Brexit. Three generations sick of rule by the EU, make of that what you will.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
You have it the wrong way round. There are no 'terms'. There are only 'proposals'. Proposals which are devoid of reality.
The EU have stated from 'Day 1' what the terms were for leaving. And there are four freedoms that cannot be 'cherry picked'.
If you leave any club or organisation, and the EU is no different, you are unlikely to get any type of deal that infringes that organisation's rules and regulations or harms its existing members.
The ballot paper only said 'Leave' or 'Remain'. It never said 'Leave but with Caveats and Concessions'
Mrs May is waisting her time. Her proposal has been quite rightly rejected by the EU. She must decided to recommend to Parliament either Leave with no deal (as per the referendum), Remain (as per the referendum) or join an associated organisation affiliated to the EU like Norway.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Alewfin
OK, proposals then, it still applies. I cannot imagine why she keeps trying.
The ballot paper did indeed say 'leave' or 'remain' and the majority decided leave, end of.
Jackie
OK, proposals then, it still applies. I cannot imagine why she keeps trying.
The ballot paper did indeed say 'leave' or 'remain' and the majority decided leave, end of.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
The answer is a catch 22 situation for the EU & it knows full well that if it gives a deal to the UK then the "club" will probably self-destruct as other members push for the same!
Shane
Shane
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Jackie, while most people were not influenced directly by Russia, it is now clear some were, Russian money illegally funded the leave campaign and Russian influence helped in ways we cannot quantify.
I am sure if it had influenced and funded the other way round, then you would be one of the first to complain.
We all have a freedom to protest, complain, influence and lobby. Just because a slight majority of the voting populace chose one thing, does not make it set in stone. Otherwise no referendum would have been held to leave!
This entire brexit event is probably the largest effect on our lives (unless old enough to be adult during WW2) and so far, no positives appear even on the distant horizon. Rees-Mogg says don't expect anything for 50 years (while his investment firm will stuff their pockets - as happened in depressed states, the rich get richer)
I am sure if it had influenced and funded the other way round, then you would be one of the first to complain.
We all have a freedom to protest, complain, influence and lobby. Just because a slight majority of the voting populace chose one thing, does not make it set in stone. Otherwise no referendum would have been held to leave!
This entire brexit event is probably the largest effect on our lives (unless old enough to be adult during WW2) and so far, no positives appear even on the distant horizon. Rees-Mogg says don't expect anything for 50 years (while his investment firm will stuff their pockets - as happened in depressed states, the rich get richer)
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Jim
Do we have proof of Russian money illegally used in the UK ? Likewise what other influence did they have that we cannot quantify ?
The largest effect on us that I have experienced was joining in the first place, it has ruined our country, our laws, and our trade outside the Europe, which was fine before.
As has been said, there is no point in holding a referendum, and then saying err no actually the result was wrong, in my eyes it was a good result, there is no need or point in repeating the process, let's just get on with leaving, the sooner the better.
Let's stop sending billions of our money into the EU, we need it here.
Jackie
Do we have proof of Russian money illegally used in the UK ? Likewise what other influence did they have that we cannot quantify ?
The largest effect on us that I have experienced was joining in the first place, it has ruined our country, our laws, and our trade outside the Europe, which was fine before.
As has been said, there is no point in holding a referendum, and then saying err no actually the result was wrong, in my eyes it was a good result, there is no need or point in repeating the process, let's just get on with leaving, the sooner the better.
Let's stop sending billions of our money into the EU, we need it here.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Hudswell
'..you see what confuses me....is why the EU is able to negotiate a trade deal with Canada..without demanding its "Four Freedoms" but it can't ...or more precisely will not negotiate a similar deal with the U.K. When we are compliment....anyone got an answer?..'
Its quite simple. A trade deal is what it is. It's a legal agreement between two countries to enable them to trade between themselves (in the case of the EU all its members) on certain types of goods on certain conditions as specified at agreed duties and customs arrangements under agreed specification and safety rules and regulations under the jurisdiction of a joint court, in the EU's case the ECJ.
Putting it a different way. A company has a trade deal to supply golf balls to a golf club, at special rates and terms, but it doesn't give it a right to be a member of that golf club.
'..you see what confuses me....is why the EU is able to negotiate a trade deal with Canada..without demanding its "Four Freedoms" but it can't ...or more precisely will not negotiate a similar deal with the U.K. When we are compliment....anyone got an answer?..'
Its quite simple. A trade deal is what it is. It's a legal agreement between two countries to enable them to trade between themselves (in the case of the EU all its members) on certain types of goods on certain conditions as specified at agreed duties and customs arrangements under agreed specification and safety rules and regulations under the jurisdiction of a joint court, in the EU's case the ECJ.
Putting it a different way. A company has a trade deal to supply golf balls to a golf club, at special rates and terms, but it doesn't give it a right to be a member of that golf club.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
You have your facts wrong.
The EU brought prosperity to the UK. The UK was universally known as 'the sick man of Europe' before it joined in 1973.
It took a while for the UK to emerge from the depths of the dark days of the 70s but a modern country emerged thanks in part to the EU. The simplest comparison is the cars made in the 1970's with the vehicles produced today.
Today these foreign owned car factories and many other types of factories only exist in the UK because of free unhindered access to the EU to buy the components and parts for manufacturing, using 'just in time' processes and then to sell the finished products to customers in the EU and outside the EU to countries many of which have Free Trade Agreements with the EU for which the UK benefits through the collective scale and clout of the EU.
The UK domestic market, on its own, cannot support the volume of goods produced in the UK. If there is a major disruption to the current trading arrangements between the UK and the EU then these foreign owned companies will either cut back investment in the UK (as is currently happening), scale back production, reduce the manpower, shift production to their overseas factories or close the UK operations down completely. It was Jaguar Land Rover who said something along the lines of 'their heart is in the UK but their head is not'.
Can you list any EU laws that have ruined our country ?
Looking back is the past, its gone like the Empire.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Backup posted in another thread, about where we were in 1973....
I am sure though, some will say that it was the Unions that made us the sick man - but it was much more.... a transigent employer base not interested in the well being of workers, only profits. Lack of investment in industry. No forward planning and more...
The ‘notion’ that we were somehow “great” pre-EU is nonsense. We might have been a quarrelsome and strong country, equipped for war, but at the cost to 97% of its population in terms of abject poverty.
Imperialism was a terrible blight on us and other countries. Some ‘proudly’ tell us we invaded or possessed 195 of 200 countries.... as though that was a good thing. It was done for one reason only, to make the rich richer.
UK GDP in 1973 (less than half of Germany's- when East Germany had nothing, only 70% of France's)
1 [IMG] United States 1,369,800,050,000
2 [IMG] Japan 412,489,646,000
3 [IMG] Germany 385,511,883,000
4 [IMG] France 262,579,405,000
5 [IMG] United Kingdom 181,332,673,000
UK GDP in 1990 when the Single European Act (single market) kicked in [barely above half of Germany's GDP, only 80-% of France's]
1 [IMG] United States 5,757,200,200,000
2 [IMG] Japan 3,018,269,920,000
3 [IMG] Germany 1,714,469,990,000
4 [IMG] France 1,244,459,300,000
5 [IMG] Italy 1,133,406,580,000
6 [IMG] United Kingdom 991,051,120,000
UK GDP in 2014 [75% of Germany's, 103% of France's]
1 [IMG] United States 17,419,000,100,0002941/2829
2 [IMG] China 10,360,104,900,000
3 [IMG] Japan 4,601,461,300,000
4 [IMG] Germany 3,852,556,040,000
5 [IMG] United Kingdom 2,941,885,610,000
6 [IMG] France 2,829,192,000,000
I am sure though, some will say that it was the Unions that made us the sick man - but it was much more.... a transigent employer base not interested in the well being of workers, only profits. Lack of investment in industry. No forward planning and more...
The ‘notion’ that we were somehow “great” pre-EU is nonsense. We might have been a quarrelsome and strong country, equipped for war, but at the cost to 97% of its population in terms of abject poverty.
Imperialism was a terrible blight on us and other countries. Some ‘proudly’ tell us we invaded or possessed 195 of 200 countries.... as though that was a good thing. It was done for one reason only, to make the rich richer.
UK GDP in 1973 (less than half of Germany's- when East Germany had nothing, only 70% of France's)
1 [IMG] United States 1,369,800,050,000
2 [IMG] Japan 412,489,646,000
3 [IMG] Germany 385,511,883,000
4 [IMG] France 262,579,405,000
5 [IMG] United Kingdom 181,332,673,000
UK GDP in 1990 when the Single European Act (single market) kicked in [barely above half of Germany's GDP, only 80-% of France's]
1 [IMG] United States 5,757,200,200,000
2 [IMG] Japan 3,018,269,920,000
3 [IMG] Germany 1,714,469,990,000
4 [IMG] France 1,244,459,300,000
5 [IMG] Italy 1,133,406,580,000
6 [IMG] United Kingdom 991,051,120,000
UK GDP in 2014 [75% of Germany's, 103% of France's]
1 [IMG] United States 17,419,000,100,0002941/2829
2 [IMG] China 10,360,104,900,000
3 [IMG] Japan 4,601,461,300,000
4 [IMG] Germany 3,852,556,040,000
5 [IMG] United Kingdom 2,941,885,610,000
6 [IMG] France 2,829,192,000,000
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
I don't have a better analogy than the Golf Club, I'm afraid.Hudswell wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:56 am Sorry Alewfin....none the wiser....I just do not understand why the EU is so adamant about its "4 Freedoms" when it comes to a trade deal with the UK...but will negotiate competitive trade deals with Canada and other countries with no such "Red Lines"...okay I do understand...it cannot allow the UK to leave the EU, on amicable terms with a deal benificial to both parties because it will potentially cause other EU countries to follow...
The EU, out of necessity because if its size, nature, diversity and complexity, is a rule based organisation and therefore, like the USA with its constitution, has to have rules that bind all its members together with very few exceptions and without being overtly favorable or preferential to any one or more of its members. Its 'Four Freedoms' are its core values which every member signs up to and adheres to and is indivisible. It's the club's rules. Like a Golf Club its members must have greater and superior benefits because of their fees than non-members who don't have such fees.
A Free Trade Agreement (FTA) has nothing to do with the EU's 'Four Freedoms'. Likewise, I'm almost sure that any FTA between the UK and the USA would not bind the UK to the USA Constitution.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
I said 'in part' is was due to the EU that we emerged from those dark days with the '... intransigent employer base not interested in the well being of workers, only profits. Lack of investment in industry. No forward planning and more...' The Unions were part of the problem but never the problem, as there were strong unions elsewhere in the EU, especially Germany, but they were not as destructive and ideologically biased against free enterprise as they were in the UK.Jimgward wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:59 am Backup posted in another thread, about where we were in 1973....
I am sure though, some will say that it was the Unions that made us the sick man - but it was much more.... a transigent employer base not interested in the well being of workers, only profits. Lack of investment in industry. No forward planning and more...
The ‘notion’ that we were somehow “great” pre-EU is nonsense. We might have been a quarrelsome and strong country, equipped for war, but at the cost to 97% of its population in terms of abject poverty.
Imperialism was a terrible blight on us and other countries. Some ‘proudly’ tell us we invaded or possessed 195 of 200 countries.... as though that was a good thing. It was done for one reason only, to make the rich richer.
It's a curious thing that Brexiteers harp on about not being part of the EU with its trade barriers but being free to operate interdependently when one of the (unwritten but understood) conditions of the USA lending to the UK in WWII was the dismantling of the British Empire because it operated as a trading block which was not favourable to the USA.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Hudswell,
The EU, quite rightly, does not want a former member to have the same or better benefits than current members. No different to that of a Golf Club or any other club.
The EU has said that there can be a FTA between the EU and the UK. The UK would be a third country like Canada or Japan. And like these two countries the UK would not be an EU member and therefore could not have the same benefits as a member of the EU.
The EU, quite rightly, does not want a former member to have the same or better benefits than current members. No different to that of a Golf Club or any other club.
The EU has said that there can be a FTA between the EU and the UK. The UK would be a third country like Canada or Japan. And like these two countries the UK would not be an EU member and therefore could not have the same benefits as a member of the EU.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Alewfin
Free movement to start with, we have been forced to accept all sorts of immigrants, some very dangerous to our country and it's citizens.
There are many other laws that have been bad for us, I won't bore you by listing them all, but a quick trip to 'Google' will list them for you.
Jackie
Free movement to start with, we have been forced to accept all sorts of immigrants, some very dangerous to our country and it's citizens.
There are many other laws that have been bad for us, I won't bore you by listing them all, but a quick trip to 'Google' will list them for you.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Jackie - most of the 'immigrants' you will be referring to, are non-EU citizens that in the most part, we have accepted. (Remember Farage's poster?)
The freedom of movement of EU citizens and immigration has enormously benefited the UK. Almost all legal immigrants work, pay taxes, contribute to our society. Illegal immigrants are not controlled by the EU - this will be ones who have found a way across the channel and that won't change. We also have very large numbers from the Indian sub-continent and countries like Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan - most because of wars we have contributed to there. Outside that, we have illegal economic migrants from Africa and elsewhere, which are nothing to do with the EU.
The freedom of movement of EU citizens and immigration has enormously benefited the UK. Almost all legal immigrants work, pay taxes, contribute to our society. Illegal immigrants are not controlled by the EU - this will be ones who have found a way across the channel and that won't change. We also have very large numbers from the Indian sub-continent and countries like Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan - most because of wars we have contributed to there. Outside that, we have illegal economic migrants from Africa and elsewhere, which are nothing to do with the EU.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
I'm assuming you mean the EU 'all sorts of immigrants, some very dangerous to our country and it's citizens'. Perhaps you can name all the EU citizens who have been convicted for carrying out all or any of the bombings on British streets who were not British ?Firefly wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:58 pm Alewfin
Free movement to start with, we have been forced to accept all sorts of immigrants, some very dangerous to our country and it's citizens.
There are many other laws that have been bad for us, I won't bore you by listing them all, but a quick trip to 'Google' will list them for you.
Jackie
Please bore me with your list of EU laws that have been bad for us. You must have a list because how else would you know they were bad for us.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
Alewfin
They may well have been born in Britain, but their parents were immigrants, the Manchester bomber for one.
I really can't be bothered to copy newspaper articles and paste on here as some other posters do, nor do I have the time nor the inclination to enter into tit for tat posts.
Enjoy Brexit.
Jackie
They may well have been born in Britain, but their parents were immigrants, the Manchester bomber for one.
I really can't be bothered to copy newspaper articles and paste on here as some other posters do, nor do I have the time nor the inclination to enter into tit for tat posts.
Enjoy Brexit.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
No. that´s not true. No Eu country is forced by the freedom of movement rule to acccept even immigrants from the EU if they cannot prove they are able to sustain themselves according to the respective nation´s standards. E. g. In Cyprus you need to prove that you have a minimum income / assets and health insurance. The same is true for Germany (and I guess most other EU countries). That the UK hasn´t introduced similiar regulations isn´t the EU´s fault, is it? Let´s not even talk about non-EU immigrants because that has nothing to do with the EU. Freedom of movement doesn´t apply to them.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
jeba
If what you say is true, I fail to understand why the government didn't control immigration to the UK long before the Brexit referendum. Surely they must have felt the mood of the nation, or did they think themselves above listening to the public ? Either way, it has come back to bite them.
Coward Cameron was supposed to bring immigration levels down but as I remember, did the opposite.
Jackie
If what you say is true, I fail to understand why the government didn't control immigration to the UK long before the Brexit referendum. Surely they must have felt the mood of the nation, or did they think themselves above listening to the public ? Either way, it has come back to bite them.
Coward Cameron was supposed to bring immigration levels down but as I remember, did the opposite.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: No deal Brexit - UK expat pensioners could be chucked under the bus?
source: https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/migra ... -node.html (bolding and italising by me)Entry and residence of EU citizens
EU citizens may enter and stay in the territory of another Member States for up to three months without being subject to any conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.
EU citizens have the right of residence for longer than three months if they
are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State or are seeking employment (for a certain length of time);
are not in employment or are students or trainees and have sufficient resources and comprehensive health insurance cover;
have the right of permanent residence (following legal residence of five years).
Family members, regardless of their citizenship, accompanying or joining an EU citizen who satisfies these conditions also have the right of residence for more than three months.
So the underlying idea is that in order to reside for more than three months in another Member State, EU citizens must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State.
Does that dispel your doubt that it may not be true?
If you ever doubted that it is you probably never applied for a yellow slip because otherwise you´d have learnt that you need to prove that you do have health insurance and income / assets. Have you never wondered why Cyprus can ask for that proof?
