In an earlier post you accused someone of scrapping the barrel, reading your remarks on little blue pills, if that's the best you can come up with I suggest it's you that's scrapping the barrel.PhotoLady wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2017 12:05 pmI hear they can buy some little blue pills which apparently produces the same effect.....Firefly wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2017 11:38 am Surely it's about animals dying for the pleasure of humans, of which big game hunting, and fox hunting are just two examples.
If anyone can tell me the pleasure they gain from the experience I would like to know. All the excuses trotted out by the pro hunting fraternity mean nothing, it's for the pleasure purely and simply of those wealthy and sick enough to do it.
Jackie
Divine retribution?
Re: Divine retribution?
Re: Divine retribution?
Jules
You may be right, but no-one has chosen to tell us !
Jackie
You may be right, but no-one has chosen to tell us !
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Divine retribution?
WHL
Why scraping the barrel ? Jules might just be right !!
Jackie
Why scraping the barrel ? Jules might just be right !!
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Divine retribution?
What about female Hunters?
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Rita Sherry
- Posts: 472
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Re: Divine retribution?
First let me say I am opposed to animal cruelty in general.
That said I confess that until I was 17 or so I lived in rural Staffordshire and my friends and I used to attend hunt meetings (not on horses none of us had parents who could afford them) but on our bikes. I can honestly say that I never witnessed some of the activities described by those opposed to fox hunting and in the main I considered hunting was a way of managing the countryside. I do wonder whether some of the critics have ever been to a hunt meeting or are they relying on material or information supplied by opponents of the practise.
It is said that fox hunting is/was the prerogative of the wealthy (what is wrong with being wealthy?) but in fact that statement is not entirely accurate. The Hunts in the Southern Home Counties may have some well soled and heeled members but not all and those in North Wales and Cumbria are very much the activity of farmers and working class people(whatever that description means). Branwen Miners' Hunt is a prime example although membership now is by no means limited to miners. Incidentally they had their point to point fences badly damaged by arson and I cannot for the life of me comprehend what justification there can be for such an action and what possible distress a point to point meeting place could cause.
Prior to the fox hunting ban in 2005 the UK Government commissioned a report which was produced by Terence Burns ( A Permanent Private Secretary at the Treasury) who in turn utilised Oxford University research for some of its content. One of the features of that report was the fact that usually the fox was killed within 17 minutes of the chase commencing (a fox travels at 30mph when running) and was killed instantly by the hound/s. It was also the contention of this research that controlling fox numbers by any other means was even more cruel. Prior to the ban hounds contributed to the death of 6.3% of the 400,000 foxes killed annually.
Opponents of fox hunting claimed the activity was not necessary for fox control arguing that the fox is not a pest species and that more foxes are killed on the roads than by hunting. They proposed that the management goals of the hunt could be met more effectively by other methods such as "lamping" (dazzling a fox with bright light then shooting it by a competent shooter. This was considered impractical as foxes are nocturnal creatures and shooting would not always kill instantly thus having situations where the fox runs away wounded and suffering longer. Royal in his post confirms this can be so.
Fox Hunts have rules of conduct which are strictly enforced by the Hunt Master and I can hear the criticism of that statement before I submit this post. However it is true. The incident relating to the cub (singular - although one too many - rather than plural occurred in June 2016 and when three men were arrested they were immediately suspended from hunt membership and on conviction banned permanently.
There are rogue members of all organisations and it is not only inaccurate to describe people as they have been in some of the above posts but insulting to those who care for the countryside and how it is managed. Anti hunting personnel are not all squeaky clean. Permit me to illustrate one such case.
Some few years ago a Staffordshire farmer under licence agreed to breed guinea pigs for a Medical Research Company also licensed and strongly regulated. When this became known he was visited by a group of anti animal cruelty personnel who tried to persuade him to cease his activities. When refused they mounted 24 hour watches outside his property and made threats re him and his family even to the landlord of the local pub if he continued to serve the farmer. The police were unable to act as and until some crime had been committed. One night the building housing the guinea pigs was broken into and the animals released. The next morning most of them were found dead, killed by other wild animals. The protesters denied all knowledge.
Some time later the grave of the farmer's mother-in-law was dug up and the coffin removed - it was many months before it was discovered buried in a field and some people on here describe fox hunters as barbaric etc. The irony is that the mother-in-law had never lived at the farm. All denied any involvement nor would they give information to the police. Any of this mentioned by the anti organisations? I think not
Surreyboy started this post to report the unfortunate and sickening death of an elephant and I apologise for my part in hijacking the thread but I was becoming more and more concerned regarding the attitude of those who, whilst being perfectly entitled to express their views, have in my view an obligation to read what others who may disagree with them have to say without unnecessary rancour.
I did post earlier re the elephant and if you will permit me to say so instead of criticising the Government regarding the Ivory Trade (which is banned in the UK anyway) why not take a holiday or write to the authorities in South Africa and Zimbabwe as well as other African countries regarding the subject because it is those countries who are opposed to any world trade ban on ivory.
Rita
That said I confess that until I was 17 or so I lived in rural Staffordshire and my friends and I used to attend hunt meetings (not on horses none of us had parents who could afford them) but on our bikes. I can honestly say that I never witnessed some of the activities described by those opposed to fox hunting and in the main I considered hunting was a way of managing the countryside. I do wonder whether some of the critics have ever been to a hunt meeting or are they relying on material or information supplied by opponents of the practise.
It is said that fox hunting is/was the prerogative of the wealthy (what is wrong with being wealthy?) but in fact that statement is not entirely accurate. The Hunts in the Southern Home Counties may have some well soled and heeled members but not all and those in North Wales and Cumbria are very much the activity of farmers and working class people(whatever that description means). Branwen Miners' Hunt is a prime example although membership now is by no means limited to miners. Incidentally they had their point to point fences badly damaged by arson and I cannot for the life of me comprehend what justification there can be for such an action and what possible distress a point to point meeting place could cause.
Prior to the fox hunting ban in 2005 the UK Government commissioned a report which was produced by Terence Burns ( A Permanent Private Secretary at the Treasury) who in turn utilised Oxford University research for some of its content. One of the features of that report was the fact that usually the fox was killed within 17 minutes of the chase commencing (a fox travels at 30mph when running) and was killed instantly by the hound/s. It was also the contention of this research that controlling fox numbers by any other means was even more cruel. Prior to the ban hounds contributed to the death of 6.3% of the 400,000 foxes killed annually.
Opponents of fox hunting claimed the activity was not necessary for fox control arguing that the fox is not a pest species and that more foxes are killed on the roads than by hunting. They proposed that the management goals of the hunt could be met more effectively by other methods such as "lamping" (dazzling a fox with bright light then shooting it by a competent shooter. This was considered impractical as foxes are nocturnal creatures and shooting would not always kill instantly thus having situations where the fox runs away wounded and suffering longer. Royal in his post confirms this can be so.
Fox Hunts have rules of conduct which are strictly enforced by the Hunt Master and I can hear the criticism of that statement before I submit this post. However it is true. The incident relating to the cub (singular - although one too many - rather than plural occurred in June 2016 and when three men were arrested they were immediately suspended from hunt membership and on conviction banned permanently.
There are rogue members of all organisations and it is not only inaccurate to describe people as they have been in some of the above posts but insulting to those who care for the countryside and how it is managed. Anti hunting personnel are not all squeaky clean. Permit me to illustrate one such case.
Some few years ago a Staffordshire farmer under licence agreed to breed guinea pigs for a Medical Research Company also licensed and strongly regulated. When this became known he was visited by a group of anti animal cruelty personnel who tried to persuade him to cease his activities. When refused they mounted 24 hour watches outside his property and made threats re him and his family even to the landlord of the local pub if he continued to serve the farmer. The police were unable to act as and until some crime had been committed. One night the building housing the guinea pigs was broken into and the animals released. The next morning most of them were found dead, killed by other wild animals. The protesters denied all knowledge.
Some time later the grave of the farmer's mother-in-law was dug up and the coffin removed - it was many months before it was discovered buried in a field and some people on here describe fox hunters as barbaric etc. The irony is that the mother-in-law had never lived at the farm. All denied any involvement nor would they give information to the police. Any of this mentioned by the anti organisations? I think not
Surreyboy started this post to report the unfortunate and sickening death of an elephant and I apologise for my part in hijacking the thread but I was becoming more and more concerned regarding the attitude of those who, whilst being perfectly entitled to express their views, have in my view an obligation to read what others who may disagree with them have to say without unnecessary rancour.
I did post earlier re the elephant and if you will permit me to say so instead of criticising the Government regarding the Ivory Trade (which is banned in the UK anyway) why not take a holiday or write to the authorities in South Africa and Zimbabwe as well as other African countries regarding the subject because it is those countries who are opposed to any world trade ban on ivory.
Rita
Re: Divine retribution?
Hadn't we better ban horse racing and greyhound racing as they die doing their activities for the enjoyment of us humans!
As Rita says fox hunting is not an elite sport, the fox hunts I used to attend were supported by all classes of society and a good day out in open countryside and fresh air with good company whether one saw a fox or not.
As was hunting with beagles after hares.
As Rita says fox hunting is not an elite sport, the fox hunts I used to attend were supported by all classes of society and a good day out in open countryside and fresh air with good company whether one saw a fox or not.
As was hunting with beagles after hares.
Re: Divine retribution?
Rita
I always respect your views, and I fully understand what you say. The incident of the Farmer's mother in Law's body, was that proved to have been moved by animal activists ?
Strange though it may seem from my posts, I descend from a long line of Huntsmen, on my mother's side. As a small girl I had a pet cat which I loved very much, and was taught that I should love and respect animals. I therefore found it very disturbing that the mounted masks of six dead foxes, were hung on the wall of the staircase. I used to look in to their dead eyes, and see the snarl on each and every face, I couldn't understand why when we should love animals, I had to experience the misery of seeing their poor faces. My mother told me that they were there because they belonged to granddad who lived with us, a retired Huntsman.
I will never forget the misery those faces brought to me as a little girl, and that's why I'm anti foxhunting, NOTHING will ever change my mind.
Jackie
I always respect your views, and I fully understand what you say. The incident of the Farmer's mother in Law's body, was that proved to have been moved by animal activists ?
Strange though it may seem from my posts, I descend from a long line of Huntsmen, on my mother's side. As a small girl I had a pet cat which I loved very much, and was taught that I should love and respect animals. I therefore found it very disturbing that the mounted masks of six dead foxes, were hung on the wall of the staircase. I used to look in to their dead eyes, and see the snarl on each and every face, I couldn't understand why when we should love animals, I had to experience the misery of seeing their poor faces. My mother told me that they were there because they belonged to granddad who lived with us, a retired Huntsman.
I will never forget the misery those faces brought to me as a little girl, and that's why I'm anti foxhunting, NOTHING will ever change my mind.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Divine retribution?
Love it.
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Divine retribution?
Web Designer / Developer. Currently working on Paphos Life.
Living in Polemi, Cyprus with my wife and daughter.
Living in Polemi, Cyprus with my wife and daughter.
Re: Divine retribution?
That's disgusting, how can that behaviour help animals !
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Divine retribution?
Releasing all the mink didn't help animals either. That was a case of the road to Hell being paved with good intentions. The Guinea Pig Farm saga was way beyond that though.
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Living in Polemi, Cyprus with my wife and daughter.
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Cogs123
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:32 pm
- Location: York Nth. Yorks. Sometimes Lower Peyia
Re: Divine retribution?
I never realized that it was a prerequisite to be a Vegan in order to justify opposition to the cruel treatment of animals. 
It has always irritated me that the pro-hunting fraternity & the right wing press like the Daily Hate, have consistently referred to the fox as ' vermin ', DEFRA, ( Department for Environment & Rural Affairs ), has NEVER categorized the Fox with this title.
It is a clearly designed ploy in order to justify fox hunting to the masses.
Equating fox hunting to the swatting of insects is a pretty thin argument, at least their death was instant, it doesn't quite match an animal being chased to exhaustion then set about by a pack of between 40/60 dogs.
The nocturnal argument holds no water either, DEFRA chose marksman, trained & licensed by them, for the Badger cull in 2013,
The same method could be used on foxes for land management.
Given the choice, if I was asked, which method I would prefer for my own demise......the bullet, any day of the week....even if it did take more than one.
Jackie & Jules....well done....keep up the fight.
It has always irritated me that the pro-hunting fraternity & the right wing press like the Daily Hate, have consistently referred to the fox as ' vermin ', DEFRA, ( Department for Environment & Rural Affairs ), has NEVER categorized the Fox with this title.
It is a clearly designed ploy in order to justify fox hunting to the masses.
Equating fox hunting to the swatting of insects is a pretty thin argument, at least their death was instant, it doesn't quite match an animal being chased to exhaustion then set about by a pack of between 40/60 dogs.
The nocturnal argument holds no water either, DEFRA chose marksman, trained & licensed by them, for the Badger cull in 2013,
The same method could be used on foxes for land management.
Given the choice, if I was asked, which method I would prefer for my own demise......the bullet, any day of the week....even if it did take more than one.
Jackie & Jules....well done....keep up the fight.
Life is not about waiting for the Storm to pass...
It is about learning to Dance in the Rain
It is about learning to Dance in the Rain
Re: Divine retribution?
I disagree, the only people who can protest without being Hypercritical, are Vegans...protesting that a fox has been killed, while tucking in to a juicy steak, is very hypercritical, cows, pigs,lambs,chickens etc etc dont count.
Re: Divine retribution?
The difference is quite simple, the latter group are bred for our consumption not for our sport!
Shane
Re: Divine retribution?
I thought they were all living creatures, my mistake
Re: Divine retribution?
Are you honestly saying you cannot see the difference between killing something for fun and killing something for food?
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Living in Polemi, Cyprus with my wife and daughter.
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Re: Divine retribution?
Dominic off cause I know the difference, and I dont like to see any animal suffer, and seeing a bunch of inbreds dressed up in red fancy-dress, Tally hooing across the countryside isnt my cup of tea, but until someone comes up with a better way to control foxes/vermin.. then so be it, I do feel its hypercritical to cry tears for Foxes, while your tucking into a leg of lamb.
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markwoods39
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:18 am
Re: Divine retribution?
In my opinion anyone who thinks its ok to chase a fox to be finally caught or even dug up to let the hounds then rip it apart is not all in the head. Why do us humans " well some of us " have to mess about with mother nature ?. Did you know some people breed foxes to be chased and killed in the name of FUN / Sport !!!! Mother nature will sort things out just leave her to it. I do think hunting for food is ok as its our way us humans to survive but killing for fun or sport is not ok . I do wonder sometime if humans never evolved what this great planet would be like!! a lot better me thinks
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markwoods39
- Posts: 47
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Re: Divine retribution?
WHL, really who is vermin ? us humans who is destroying this planet ? just saying 
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cyprusgrump
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Re: Divine retribution?
I think it depends a lot on your background...
I'm completely squeamish - I've been brought up with packaged foods and remember being upset when Mum stabbed sausages...
I could no more kill a fox than I could kill a snake - I rescue beatles from my pool.
But if you are brought up in the countryside you are much more used to the death of creatures for our benefit. I can't imagine sending lambs, sheep, goats, calves or cows off to the slaughterhouse having reared them... But if you are brought up with that then it would be second nature to you.
And so, if your business is raising lambs, sheep, goats, calves or cows to sell at Market then foxes are vermin that can destroy your product.
And they have to be controlled or you go out of business. You can't leave it to 'Mother Nature' because there would be no food on the shelves. My brother in law keeps chickens and a fox killed the lot one night because it could - not just one for food but the lot.
And as has been pointed out earlier in this thread, the hunt is a very good way of controlling them...
I'm completely squeamish - I've been brought up with packaged foods and remember being upset when Mum stabbed sausages...
I could no more kill a fox than I could kill a snake - I rescue beatles from my pool.But if you are brought up in the countryside you are much more used to the death of creatures for our benefit. I can't imagine sending lambs, sheep, goats, calves or cows off to the slaughterhouse having reared them... But if you are brought up with that then it would be second nature to you.
And so, if your business is raising lambs, sheep, goats, calves or cows to sell at Market then foxes are vermin that can destroy your product.
And they have to be controlled or you go out of business. You can't leave it to 'Mother Nature' because there would be no food on the shelves. My brother in law keeps chickens and a fox killed the lot one night because it could - not just one for food but the lot.
And as has been pointed out earlier in this thread, the hunt is a very good way of controlling them...
