British Empire.... Good or Bad?

[Jimgward]

The worst aspect of "empire" was the First World War. A fight between two cousins, over territory. Millions laughtered for 'GOD AND COUNTRY". Shameful on both ruling families and no Royal should ever be allowed ultimate power ever again. We were led to believe it was over the killing of an insignificant royal in Croatia, when in fact our own King ordered a war at any cost. The 'treaty' to protect Belgium, wasn't in place.

It was such a colossal flip up, that all Europe was thrown into depression, creating a ripe environment for WWII and Hitler. So two cousins ultimately killed over 50million souls by their actions.

[Royal]

Rather a simplistic view, Jimgward!

[kingfisher]

Not just simplistic but incorrect. The consensus of expert opinion is virtually unanimous in squarely placing the blame on Germany, Austria Hungary and Serbia.

[Jimgward]

Not just simplistic but incorrect. The consensus of expert opinion is virtually unanimous in squarely placing the blame on Germany, Austria Hungary and Serbia.

Not according to recent releases. The King told his foreign secretary, he wanted war, whatever the cost.

[Jimgward]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/worl ... d-War.html

Revealed: how King George V demanded Britain enter the First World War
Record of previously unknown meeting between George V and his Foreign Secretary reveals that the King told him to "find a reason" to go to war with Germany

[Jimgward]

Rather a simplistic view, Jimgward!

Rather a simplistic retort.

[Royal]

Rather a simplistic retort.

Yes - a simplistic retort to a simplistic post. However, if you want a more reasoned response, let's take a look at your 'evidence' from the 'news' report:

As the report admits, there is no historical record of a meeting between the King and the Foreign Secretary two days before the war as claimed in the letter. All official meetings are minuted. Why, if it actually took place, was this one not? The only supposed 'record' is a letter written by a third person (the nephew of the then Foreign Secretary) nearly 20 years after the event. Hardly a contemporaneous record, let alone an official one!

As kingfisher stated, blame for the the war rested primarily (although not exclusively) with Germanys' militarism and its' quest for a larger empire at that time. The report states that the President of France and the King of Belgium urged Britain to go to war, and that Belgium had been violated.

The claim that 'the King wanted war whatever the cost' which subsequently led to a compliant Parliament agreeing is, as I stated, simplistic.

It was Parliament which ultimately agreed to Britain joining the war after a long period of deliberation. Not the King, and certainly not the then Foreign Secretary.

Tip: Don't believe everything you read in 'newspapers' and subsequently claim it as factual.

[Dominic]

I have moved this to the Politics section. Jimgward, if you want to use more robust language, why not start the thread in the Politics section next time?

[kingfisher]

As Royal states the blame for the war rested primarily with Germany's quest for a larger empire at that time. However, Germany's ambitions have never really been sated, which is why it is now achieving them- not through tanks- but through banks- ask any of the 50% of unemployed youth in Greece for one.
Might I suggest it is more constructive to look at current empire-building and its effects than to attempt to rewrite the history of one hundred years ago?

[Jimgward]

As Royal states the blame for the war rested primarily with Germany's quest for a larger empire at that time. However, Germany's ambitions have never really been sated, which is why it is now achieving them- not through tanks- but through banks- ask any of the 50% of unemployed youth in Greece for one.
Might I suggest it is more constructive to look at current empire-building and its effects than to attempt to rewrite the history of one hundred years ago?

OK. Good point..... what about this from yesterday's Times?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/minis ... -v9bs6f6z9





Actually, a re-invigoration of the Commonwealth, if done for the right reasons, could show the world how to do it....

[Pete G]

Revealed: how King George V demanded Britain enter the First World War
Record of previously unknown meeting between George V and his Foreign Secretary reveals that the King told him to "find a reason" to go to war with Germany

Given that the UK was in 1914, as now, a constitutional monarchy, and the Parliament Act passed three years before had effectively neutered the entire aristocracy [including the King] from any significant political decisions at all, for which Edward Grey was a prime mover, having started his political career as an MP effectively on the ticket that the hereditary aristocracy still had way too much authority, even if such a meeting did take place, and even if George V did make such a demand, Grey's answer would have been more likely to have been more along the lines of 'thank you your majesty for illustrating so clearly why we've just taken so much power from the aristocracy, have you taken your medication this morning?'

The only way George V could have started WW1 would have been if he'd have sneaked into Germany dressed as the Kaiser, invaded Belgium, and got back before anyone noticed.

He'd already been told, as had his 'eccentric' father before him from about 1905 onwards, that the whims of the monarch had no place in modern British politics

[Devil]

Given that the UK was in 1914, as now, a constitutional monarchy, and the Parliament Act passed three years before had effectively neutered the entire aristocracy [including the King] from any significant political decisions at all, for which Edward Grey was a prime mover, having started his political career as an MP effectively on the ticket that the hereditary aristocracy still had way too much authority, even if such a meeting did take place, and even if George V did make such a demand, Grey's answer would have been more likely to have been more along the lines of 'thank you your majesty for illustrating so clearly why we've just taken so much power from the aristocracy, have you taken your medication this morning?'

Wow! That's some sentence!

[Pete G]

I'm periodophobic

[Royal]

...Germany's ambitions have never really been sated, which is why it is now achieving them- not through tanks- but through banks- ask any of the 50% of unemployed youth in Greece for one.

So true. Germany lost the war but won the peace.

[Dominic]

...Germany's ambitions have never really been sated, which is why it is now achieving them- not through tanks- but through banks- ask any of the 50% of unemployed youth in Greece for one.

So true. Germany lost the war but won the peace.

Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece increased to 45.70 percent in November from 44.20 percent in October of 2016. Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece averaged 34.79 percent from 1998 until 2016, reaching an all time high of 60 percent in March of 2013 and a record low of 20.10 percent in May of 2008.

Given that the figure seems to fluctuate more than the exchange rate, how can you blame it on the Germans?

[Royal]

...Germany's ambitions have never really been sated, which is why it is now achieving them- not through tanks- but through banks- ask any of the 50% of unemployed youth in Greece for one.

So true. Germany lost the war but won the peace.

Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece increased to 45.70 percent in November from 44.20 percent in October of 2016. Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece averaged 34.79 percent from 1998 until 2016, reaching an all time high of 60 percent in March of 2013 and a record low of 20.10 percent in May of 2008.

Given that the figure seems to fluctuate more than the exchange rate, how can you blame it on the Germans?

Dominic, you cannot be serious. Germany de facto runs the EU - what they dictate becomes EU policy as they are the Eurozone paymasters. It pays Germany to have economically weak competitors. Even according to the IMF, Greece needs to be forgiven its debts (in much the same way that Germany was after WW2). It was Germany which has consistently blocked it.

[ApusApus]

So true. Germany lost the war but won the peace.

Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece increased to 45.70 percent in November from 44.20 percent in October of 2016. Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece averaged 34.79 percent from 1998 until 2016, reaching an all time high of 60 percent in March of 2013 and a record low of 20.10 percent in May of 2008.

Given that the figure seems to fluctuate more than the exchange rate, how can you blame it on the Germans?

Dominic, you cannot be serious. Germany de facto runs the EU - what they dictate becomes EU policy as they are the Eurozone paymasters. It pays Germany to have economically weak competitors. Even according to the IMF, Greece needs to be forgiven its debts (in much the same way that Germany was after WW2). It was Germany which has consistently blocked it.

We've been here before ............ forgive Greece its debts!

So what about those countries that have already gone through a bailout & come out the other end, do you propose the EU gives them a rebate to compensate them for the hardship they endured sorting out their economy or should they ignore their cries & say tough you should have fought harder?

And what about those countries teetering on the brink like Italy, Spain, etc, are you proposing to forgive their debts?


Shane

[Dominic]

So true. Germany lost the war but won the peace.

Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece increased to 45.70 percent in November from 44.20 percent in October of 2016. Youth Unemployment Rate in Greece averaged 34.79 percent from 1998 until 2016, reaching an all time high of 60 percent in March of 2013 and a record low of 20.10 percent in May of 2008.

Given that the figure seems to fluctuate more than the exchange rate, how can you blame it on the Germans?

Dominic, you cannot be serious. Germany de facto runs the EU - what they dictate becomes EU policy as they are the Eurozone paymasters. It pays Germany to have economically weak competitors. Even according to the IMF, Greece needs to be forgiven its debts (in much the same way that Germany was after WW2). It was Germany which has consistently blocked it.

You didn't answer my question.

Greek Youth Unemployment 60% - blame the Germans
Greek Youth Unemployment 20% - blame the Germans
Greek Youth Unemployment 45% - blame the Germans

How can you blame the Germans for all three levels?

[Royal]

Err!...when did I blame the Germans for all 3 levels of youth unemployment?

What I said was that Germany lost the war and won the peace. Simple statement, which not many could disagree with. How on earth could you possibly infer from that I was even referring to youth unemployment in Greece?

[Royal]

We've been here before ............ forgive Greece its debts!

So what about those countries that have already gone through a bailout & come out the other end, do you propose the EU gives them a rebate to compensate them for the hardship they endured sorting out their economy or should they ignore their cries & say tough you should have fought harder?

And what about those countries teetering on the brink like Italy, Spain, etc, are you proposing to forgive their debts?


Shane

There has to be debt relief at some stage. Being in the Eurozone, Greece like Spain, Italy and Ireland cannot control its' interest rates, inflation, money supply or anything else which may otherwise help it to prosper. The future for Greece (as far as Germany is concerned) is austerity, austerity and more austerity. The average annual working hours in Greece are already the 3rd highest in the world at 2042 compared with 1674 in the U.K. And 1371 in Germany. As Dominic has pointed out, unemployment especially amongst the younger generation is at a level where there is no hope on the horizon.

Greece's debts were mainly to German and French BANKS which were considered too big to fail, so the idea of lending money to Greece was a ruse to secure German and French banks whilst the loaned money became a sovereign debt. Appalling behaviour by Germany and France, but not really surprising.

The IMF have categorically stated that Greece needs debt relief.

What's the alternative? Bankrupt them? Kick them out of the Eurozone, followed by kicking them out of the EU? Watch Italy and Spain follow and the whole EU collapse in due course. Actually - not a bad scenario come to think of it...