Where does May go from here...

[Jimgward]

It is looking likely that there are only a couple of scenarios left;

• Leave with No deal
  
  Try to soften the Backstop to allow support in parliament - very unlikely for either
  
  Another Referendum with the choices;
  
  Leave with no deal or remain

[Firefly]

Another referendum would make a mockery of democracy, we all had the opportunity to vote, a lot of us did, end of.

What's all this 'peoples vote', if it wasn't people who voted the first time, who was it, little green men from Mars ?


Jackie

[Jimgward]

That notion of breaking democracy to have another vote, is nonsense.

The previous referendum was a hugely divisive event. Since then, the Government has tried in difficult circumstances to honour the result.

Unfortunately, there was always an element of fantasy about the promises of a “have our cake and eat it” deal from the likes of the Brexit promoters.

Jeremy Corbyn appears to have now joined their ranks, claiming we could have a deal if only he were Prime Minister. It was fantasy then and fantasy now. There is no cake. Wer have had warnings from the CBU, the Bank of England, most economists, the Agriculture and the Manufacturing bodies - who all say a hard-0brexit would devastate their industries.

So it’s understandable that the vision which persuaded 52 per cent of people to back Brexit has not been turned into reality. That was because for some, a hard brexit was their vision. Fort more and more, a soft brexit was their choice. No, the majority of the UK population are against the precipice we are looking over.

That means the Brexit question has now changed and it requires a new answer from the people, expressed in a second referendum. That isn't breaking any form of democracy. Democracy isn't some fixed, one-off decision on things. Otherwise we would still outlaw homosexuality, women couldn't vote and abortion would be banned. We would be in even more wars and spending on some area would have increased to the detriment of others. It is democratic to debate and take decisions, but those decisions need to then be investigated before going into law. The Irish do it properly with two referendums on important subjects. One to carry out the investigation and come back with FACTS. The second to then vote on what is really available.

Brexiteers who believed the issue was settled in 2016 may feel aggrieved. I understand that. There is a risk that some will boycott another vote, undermining the result. Others may decide that democracy has been betrayed and may – wrongly –conclude that unrest is justified.

Similarly, if there was no other vote, we could go down a one-way street with no reverse gear and a giant hole at the end. The brakes don't work and it's all downhill. We listened to our sat-nav and took the turn - but tyhe sat-nav didn't know we had no brakes and no reverse gear. Also, it hadn't been updated for too long.

[Firefly]

Why oh why do some people assume that people who voted to leave, had no idea what they were voting for ?

A lot of us remember what Britain was like before we joined the EU, it wasn't all poverty and mayhem. Our Government ruled us, not Europe, we didn't pay millions to Europe, we paid the people we traded with, where it was Britain's choice who we traded with. Our borders were secure, the 'remainers' can scoff all they like, but we were a happier, stronger, safer Nation than we are today.


I would like to know how many 'remainers' remember that time. I suggest that they are just afraid of something they have no experience of.


Jackie

[jeba]

They chose to leave the EU.

You´re repeating yourself. So let me repeat myself as well: But they never chose to leave the common market which is not the same as the EU. Ask the Norwegian or Swiss if you don´t believe me.

Jeba, the Norwegians and Swiss have had to agree to freedom of movement a fundamental tenant of the EU “Single Market” and customs Union, something that is unacceptable to those that voted for Brexit, hence negotiating the future trade agreements with the EU have been so fraught.

That´s what you say. But maybe crashing out with no deal is even more inacceptable to them? How do you know?

[jeba]

Why oh why do some people assume that people who voted to leave, had no idea what they were voting for ?

A lot of us remember what Britain was like before we joined the EU, it wasn't all poverty and mayhem. Our Government ruled us, not Europe, we didn't pay millions to Europe, we paid the people we traded with, where it was Britain's choice who we traded with. Our borders were secure, the 'remainers' can scoff all they like, but we were a happier, stronger, safer Nation than we are today.


I would like to know how many 'remainers' remember that time. I suggest that they are just afraid of something they have no experience of.


Jackie

You´re talking as if leaving the EU would simply mean restoring the status quo ante. But this won´t be the case. E. g. supply chains of the 70ies are no longer there and can´t simply be restored or have become irrelevant anyway. E. g. You can´t simply fall back onto WTO trade regulations.E. g. people made investment and life decisions based on EU membership like e. g. buying property or entering long-term leases which can´t simply be made undone.

[josef k]

Why oh why do some people assume that people who voted to leave, had no idea what they were voting for ?

A lot of us remember what Britain was like before we joined the EU, it wasn't all poverty and mayhem. Our Government ruled us, not Europe, we didn't pay millions to Europe, we paid the people we traded with, where it was Britain's choice who we traded with. Our borders were secure, the 'remainers' can scoff all they like, but we were a happier, stronger, safer Nation than we are today.


I would like to know how many 'remainers' remember that time. I suggest that they are just afraid of something they have no experience of.


Jackie

I am a remainer and am old enough to remember the time in the distant past (before 1973) when the UK wasn't in the EU. I recall it was a time of industrial unrest, lack of investment and poor management. It was also a time of reducing GDP when compared with the EU countries. You may recall the UK being referred to as "the sick man of Europe". After joining, the UKs economic decline was reversed.
As to borders being secure, what does that actually mean? Did we have some sort of Trump style wall, or minefields? The fact is that every year there are more non-EU migrants to the UK than EU ones. Leaving the EU will not affect migration from non-EU countries one iota.

The idea that the UK would be better off by going back 45 years is risible.

[Devil]

A lot of us remember what Britain was like before we joined the EU, it wasn't all poverty and mayhem. Our Government ruled us, not Europe, we didn't pay millions to Europe, we paid the people we traded with, where it was Britain's choice who we traded with. Our borders were secure, the 'remainers' can scoff all they like, but we were a happier, stronger, safer Nation than we are today.
Jackie

I take it you didn't watch Andrew Marr's programme last night on Britain's post-war history? One Government only ruled us, from 1945 to 1950, when Attlee's visions started to wane. It was a period when the UK didn't have two pennies to rub together, yet they started the NHS and social security, thanks to Beveridge. Then the UK became a de facto US colony. True, we were not ruled by Europe; worse, we were ruled by Washington and the almighty dollar, morally and physically, under Churchill right up to the 2000s, when we paid off the last billions of our debt to the great USA.

we were a happier, stronger, safer Nation than we are today.

Yes, we were happier and less material through all those years of austerity, but we were weak and not safer, cast between the USA and the USSR, the cold war. There is a strong risk we shall become weak again (excuse the paradox) if we were to go it alone, as we cast ourselves away in an uncharted sea but we shall never re-live the kind of happiness that we had in the adversity of the post-war years. I remember the artificiality of the pre-war years when we thought that life was wonderful; that is the kind of happiness we should avoid and I'm afraid we may become artificial again in the post-EU years, with Brexit's rose-tinted spectacles. Take this from a very old man who has lived through 19 prime ministries.

[Devil]

the vast majority of those that voted to leave the EU knew what they were voting for

Yes, they were voting for a pipe-dream

[Firefly]

Devil, I assume you are referring to the money Britain borrowed to fight Germany, ironic isn't it.

[Devil]

Devil, I assume you are referring to the money Britain borrowed to fight Germany, ironic isn't it.

Not at all, I was referring to the Marshall Plan.

The Marshall Plan (officially the European Recovery Program, ERP) was an American initiative passed in 1948 to aid Western Europe, in which the United States gave over $12 billion (nearly $100 billion in 2016 US dollars) in economic assistance to help rebuild Western European economies after the end of World War II.

Britain all but bankrupted itself paying back its debts, including a large part of the Plan. Nearly all western European countries borrowed from the Plan, including Germany.

[Jimgward]

Why oh why do some people assume that people who voted to leave, had no idea what they were voting for ?

A lot of us remember what Britain was like before we joined the EU, it wasn't all poverty and mayhem. Our Government ruled us, not Europe, we didn't pay millions to Europe, we paid the people we traded with, where it was Britain's choice who we traded with. Our borders were secure, the 'remainers' can scoff all they like, but we were a happier, stronger, safer Nation than we are today.


I would like to know how many 'remainers' remember that time. I suggest that they are just afraid of something they have no experience of.


Jackie

I never said that. I said some voted for different perceptions of what it meant. Some thought hard, some soft. To say otherwise would be wrong

[Jimgward]

I grew up in pre-common-market Britain and when I look back at the poverty, strife and difficulties it’s hard to relate.

I queued for many hours for bread during a bread strike that lasted week. I queued for coal and paraffin at different times. My father was a veteran that received no support. He also retired early due to ill-health with no support. Workers had to endure appalling conditions of service. Our beaches were polluted with raw sewerage I never flew till I was 21. I was a student and that’s was a very small percentage of the country.

I don’t remember those simple times with affection at all. I remember also the times shortly thereafter, with strikes, wars, troubles in Ireland and more.

I wouldn’t take my enemies (if i had any) back to those times.

The EU laws were 97% backed and promoted by the UK but would not have happened in an independent Britain.

Even now, Ireland has more voice in the EU, than Scotland or Wales have in the UK.

[tonee]

Corbyn,sits with terrorists but refuses to sit with a british prime minister!!!

[jeba]

Jeba, I don’t, but the majority of those that voted in the referendum voted to leave, and leave the UK shall, hopefully with a beneficial deal to both the UK and the EU, which will I doubt very much will be based on the Norwegian or Swiss Models, which are neither here nor there.

You may well doubt that there is no majority in favour of a Norwegian/Swiss model. However, you can´t take for granted that you´re right, can you? Maybe there is a majority who would see that as the lesser evil and therefore prefer it to a no-deal scenario? What´s your guess if there was a referendum with a binary choice: no deal or Swiss/Norwegian model?

[jeba]

do believe that the vast majority of those that voted to leave the EU knew what they were voting for, and find it quite insulting to suggest otherwise.

I doubt that very much. How could anyone know what kind og Brexit they were voting for (when I first heard of the referendum result it didn´t even cross my mind that the UK might leave the common market as well - that´s how absurd I deemed that idea to be). Apart from that ordinary Joe usually doesn´t know much e. g. about WTO rules versus common market rules or the intricacies of supply chain management.

[Jimgward]

Corbyn,sits with terrorists but refuses to sit with a british prime minister!!!

Do you mean, like Maggie Thatcher did?

[jeba]

Jeba, a major reason for people voting for Brexit was to control the right of EU citizens moving to the UK, the Norwegian option does not meet those wishes in any shape or form. There will not be another referendum. I am not sure that you really understand the concept of the EU and the “common market” as you like to call it....this may help

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea ... _Community

Maybe that was a major reason form most. But how can you be sure there weren´t 2 % or more who would have preferred to stay in the EEA (which is what I meant when I was talking of the common market - sorry, I´m not a native English speaker so I wasn´t aware that you´re using the term common market differently - as compared to my native language). If you add those to the 48,x % who voted remain you´ll end up with a different kind of "will of the people".

[jeba]

What ifs and buts Jeba...we could discuss this all day..but the fact is that the majority of those that voted in the referendum voted to leav

Yes. And the fact is also that there was no referendum on leaving the EEA.

[tonee]

Jimgward...which British prime minister did Theresa May refuse to sit with?