It had to happen... #Brexit

[Poppy]

Forgive me Jim but we all had the ability to question,argue,try to change minds etc etc before the vote! Surely democracy is accepting the outcome ?

[Dominic]

Given that the nature of our divorce hasn't been decided, how could it be questioned before the initial vote?

To me, the obvious solution is to work out what the divorce consequences will be, both positive and negative, and put that to the vote. People will then actually know what they are voting for.

And if they don't come to a deal, the vote would be on a no-deal exit, with the consequences of that.

That would be democracy.

[exodus]

Given that the nature of our divorce hasn't been decided, how could it be questioned before the initial vote?

To me, the obvious solution is to work out what the divorce consequences will be, both positive and negative, and put that to the vote. People will then actually know what they are voting for.

And if they don't come to a deal, the vote would be on a no-deal exit, with the consequences of that.

That would be democracy.

Maybe you bickering Brits would benefit from a bit of AUTOCRACY??!!

Amos.

[Dominic]

We don't bicker in the moderate section. We politely exchange views.

[Jimgward]

Forgive me Jim but we all had the ability to question,argue,try to change minds etc etc before the vote! Surely democracy is accepting the outcome ?

Poppy, I agree with Dominic on this. If the populace didn't pressurise government to do the right thing, we wouldn't have a vote for women, equal rights, gay rights and much more.

Autocracy is fine where democracy doesn't work. In some places, it can't. Look at Iraq..... it has cost nearly a million people to try to impose democracy.

(I know that was tongue in cheek)

Brexit arguments can be wearing on people. Many who don't like it, should know on a forum like this, the arguments are in political areas and the pit! Easy to avoid!

I get involved as a heavy investor in Cyprus and for selfish reasons alone, I am concerned on my investment and more. Closer to home, I am more concerned about my children's future post-brexit as I see my own generation worse off in retrial than the baby-boomers and I don't want the decline to continue. I see Brexit negatively, many see it positively. At least almost all of us can debate that sensibly. Unlike the vitriol shown in the picture I posted above.

[Poppy]

Dominic I was not talking about the nature of the divorce I was talking about the actual vote for BREXIT. As we all know there was lots of information on how BREXIT would affect us,much of it false from both sides but we still had the ability to question all those assertions/ promises etc etc and then make our decision based on how we felt about all those assertions. Democracy as I see it is that we elect a democratic party to govern.They cannot possibly then get back to the population every time they make a decision!!
I still feel that leaving the EU was the right decision but I can accept that people like you and Jim feel that it was the wrong decision but I would hope that had the vote gone the other way then I would have accepted that decision.
I do hope that this forum is still alive and kicking in 5 years time and we can then see just whether the decision to leave was right or wrong.

[Dominic]

Well I fully intend it to be.

[exodus]

Well I fully intend it to be.

The forum, or the decision?
Amos.
(non-bickering, non-Brit).

[Jimgward]

Poppy, I 100% accept that Britain is living the EU. It won't change unless something massive happens - even if May loses premiership, theres a GE or Labour take power, I can't see Brexit doing anything other than stalling for maybe up to 12 months. It will happen.

The terms of the divorce are contentions. Nobody prior to the Referendum, fully understood the entire implications, otherwise debates on this would have been more contentious. Hard or Soft Brexit are relatively new terms. The implications for borders with Ireland, the rights of British citizens in the EU post-Brexit, the rights of EU citizens in the UK, the customs issues, the VAT charges for businesses, the cooperation in defence, the cooperation in research ...... and much more. All items such as Immigration, Sovereignty, Laws and so on that were the issues most people voted for or against brexit on....

So, we now find ourselves in a heated and gradually more acrimonious divorce. We are allowing our 'lawyers' to negotiate the terms, but they tell us no movement is taking place. We ask for transparency, but it isn't forthcoming. We are the 'injured' party, concerned about our future. What will it mean for us? Will be be ok afterwards?

I believe it is our duty, within our democracy, to ensure our elected representative represent our views. My are voted NO and I expect my MP to ignore party politics and represent me and my fellow stakeholders in this geography on this issues. Similarly, in a Yes area, I expect the MP to represent the voice of their voters.

That isn't party politics, but neither is a referendum. On something so important, I expect parliament to be given a say and not for a couple of individuals, some being railroaded by one side or the other, to decide the future of 60million people.

So, debate, lobbying, protesting, writing, arguing is very much how issues come to light that many of us haven't considered....

I invoice a Finnish company for my time. I don't charge VAT, as it's a reciprocal arrangement. After Brexit, I will likely have to add 20% to the bill, that the Finnish company won't recover, making me 20% more expensive! That could be catastrophic for me.... but also for UK industry. It will also add costs to imports...... all potentially, we don't know yet.

The EU has recently passed a law called GDPR (data protection but 1000% stronger) - with implications for every business worldwide. The UK has already decided they will implement it. Otherwise companies doing business in the EU would be prevented from accessing the markets. So, EU laws will continue to an extent post-Brexit. Did people know that?

[PhotoLady]

Whether it will be ok afterwards, nobody knows.
All we do know is that - it will be, because it's happening....

We just have to hope that it is okay when it's all done and dusted.

At the moment, the words piss up and brewery are those which immediately spring to mind - so, I'm just continuing to live in hope for however long it takes.

The only interesting stuff as far as I'm concerned is the route they take before they eventually get there and how many more people will fall beside the wayside during the process.

[Rita Sherry]

It’s not sad, its democracy itself. Freedom of speech. Ability to question, argue, to try change poeople’s minds, exert pressure. It is part of every process and the only way government is held accountable, other than an election.

Brexit is happening and the ill feeling is on all sides.....



This is a far-right nationalist group, as far as I know....

Jimgward

Ken Clarke is in that illustration but I think you will find he is anything but a right wing nationalist not even a right wing Tory and never has een.

Rita

[Dominic]

Rita, I think Jimgward meant that LEAVE.EU was a far right nationalist group.

They certainly aren't the official group who ran the Leave campaign, despite what their twitter id claims.

Please tell me I am not wrong on that point.

[Jimgward]

Rita, I think Jimgward meant that LEAVE.EU was a far right nationalist group.

They certainly aren't the official group who ran the Leave campaign, despite what their twitter id claims.

Please tell me I am not wrong on that point.

Dominic, you are absolutely correct. Brexit has spawned quite a few Nationalist groups, some who would put the BNP to shame. This one has tried to appear official, but that type of vitriol is inexcusable

[Rita Sherry]

Rita, I think Jimgward meant that LEAVE.EU was a far right nationalist group.

They certainly aren't the official group who ran the Leave campaign, despite what their twitter id claims.

Please tell me I am not wrong on that point.

Dominic

You are certainly correct in your assertion that the group in the poster are not the group who ran the official Leave campaign but my point was that Ken Clarke would never associate with such a group. Ken is an ardent EU supporter and if a label has to be placed on him at all his views are and have always been that of a left leaning conservative and I doubt he would deny that. Thus the poster, in my view, is false, misleading and as <Jim has said nasty in the extreme. Regrettably all political parties, whatever their colours, attract some odd and at times vicious people whose sole purpose appears to be to stir up trouble where none exists or previously existed. One of the reasons I stick to Hansard for Parliamentary information at least that is a verbatim record of what actually occurs. Newspapers (all of them) are mainly individual opinions of the article writers some good some not so good depending on one's own point of view and I think you will agree that the same goes for the views expressed on this and other forums but no bad thing as they give one a different perspective reading what others sincerely believe. One caveat to that is when the so called debate descends into point scoring and personal insults then meet with the cry of "well you dont have to read it or participate" - bullying tactics no less.

Rita

[Dominic]

Rita I think you have got confused. LEAVE.EU are criticising Ken Clarke. They are not saying he is part of their organisation. Ken Clarke definitely wouldn't associate with such an organisation. But nobody is saying that he has done.

[Rita Sherry]

Dominic

Oh my gosh so whose a silly billy then? I am of course. Thank you for pointing out the blindingly obvious (now for me at least). You know I looked at that poster several times before I posted but could not see its point. I pray in aid I am feeling absolutely lousy at the moment and am off to my bed in the hope I can get a good nights sleep, stop sneezing and aching and maybe see things clearer on the morrow. No alcohol has passed my lips since Wednesday so I am not under the influence. So sorry for the confusion and if you so wish you may delete my post/s on the matter - I dont think I am permitted to do it and I would not know how if I was. My apologies.

Rita

[Jimgward]

Rita

The poster was to illustrate that there are invidious elements all across the Brexit question, including this vile lot who have identified some Tory MPs who have done nothing other than oppose Brexit... I am sure someone could find similarly, some groups who condemn MPs for supporting Brexit...

One way or another, people are entitled to their views....