Another terrorist attack in London last night.

[Dominic]

The government need to be sure that any measures they take don't just cause more people living in the UK to see ISIS as an attractive option.

[jagwheels]

Bit like watching a bull fight. First time you are horrified. Next not so bad. Finally you accept it. Is this what we accept?

Seems there are no answers at the moment to terrorism

[Jimgward]

One answer would be not cutting police officer numbers, by 20,000.

Sky news today interviewed a senior policeman and asked about the statement from May about increasing police in central London and more armed cops.... He basically called her a liar.

Said that there is pledge to return as red police numbers to 2010 levels, by 2020, but they are currently over 1,000 short. Also said extra police are simply overtime cops drafted in from suburbs and police are being asked to work 16 hour shifts because of shortages. Over 5,000 police down in London.

[cyprusgrump]

How exactly would more unarmed policemen stop a Jihadist in a car/van/truck from running people over or running amok with a kitchen knife...?

It is the old saying isn't it...? When seconds count the police are only minutes away.

Extra police might be useful for controlling traffic or putting 'incident' tape up after the event but it is too late then. Innocent civilians have already been killed.

This is a problem that needs tackling at source...

[cyprusgrump]

Bit like watching a bull fight. First time you are horrified. Next not so bad. Finally you accept it. Is this what we accept?

Seems there are no answers at the moment to terrorism

It was a bizarre mixture of emotions this morning - deeply saddened but in no way surprised...

[Jimgward]

How exactly would more unarmed policemen stop a Jihadist in a car/van/truck from running people over or running amok with a kitchen knife...?

It is the old saying isn't it...? When seconds count the police are only minutes away.

Extra police might be useful for controlling traffic or putting 'incident' tape up after the event but it is too late then. Innocent civilians have already been killed.

This is a problem that needs tackling at source...

Apologies, autocorrect changed my line from "armed police" to "as red police"

Armed police is the point of the interview. Over 1,000 down in London. They are stretched.

[Dominic]

They've had armed police in London for years. In the mid 90s I was walking up a side road in Kings Cross when a van shot past me and out jumped a load of armed policemen. They completely ignored me and headed down a lane. Turns out, they were on the hunt of an armed robber.

It certainly made my lunch more interesting.

[cyprusgrump]

How exactly would more unarmed policemen stop a Jihadist in a car/van/truck from running people over or running amok with a kitchen knife...?

It is the old saying isn't it...? When seconds count the police are only minutes away.

Extra police might be useful for controlling traffic or putting 'incident' tape up after the event but it is too late then. Innocent civilians have already been killed.

This is a problem that needs tackling at source...

Apologies, autocorrect changed my line from "armed police" to "as red police"

Armed police is the point of the interview. Over 1,000 down in London. They are stretched.

No need to apologise...

But my point remains valid.

How exactly would more armed or unarmed policemen stop a Jihadist in a car/van/truck from running people over or running amok with a kitchen knife...?

When seconds count the police are only minutes away. No matter how many you have. Terrorists will always attack 'soft' targets - the ones not surrounded by armed policemen...

We can monitor these 3,000 terror suspects going about their daily 24/7 and intercept e-mails and Interwbz access. But unless they make the stupid mistake of searching for 'how to build a nail bomb' or take a sudden and unexpected interest in 'how to flay a passenger jet' it seems fairly impotent...

[cyprusgrump]

CG...I think you are right. Uniform Police would not make any difference. Armed cops reacted and shot dead three in 8 minutes from the call, so how do you improve on that. I declare an interest as ex-cop but I have to say the Police have been top notch looking from the outside in, on both Manchester and London. The fact that much of what is done, is on overtime, is completely standard. I would also point out that in my day ( From memory) firearms training and weapons were financed directly by the Home Office and do not come out of Police budgets. That may be different now but that was the situation. It is true that more Police would be better but then we need more nurses teachers etc....but where do you stop, it requires money. Just look at the training and kit the Police now have as standard against 20 years ago, let alone specialist such as firearms officers. The costs must be enormous.

Exactly...

How many armed police would be enough...? Enough to cover every soft target in the country...?

There has to be another way - I don't want my granddaughters growing up in a country where the streets look like this...

[Royal]

The problem we face is that politicians, media, senior police officers and local government all pussyfoot around Islam so as not to "offend" anyone. The elephant in the room has been there for a long time, and those who are meant to protect us have been ignoring it for far too long. They all need to start calling it what it is. Why, for example, are we constantly being told that these individuals do not truly represent Islam? The Q'uran (which is for ALL muslims - not just the fundamentalists) "contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with non-believers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter" (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... lence.aspx)

Of course, there is nothing that the government can do about the Q'uran, but what are the clerics teaching? Remember the Jordanian Islamic preacher Abu Qatada? He travelled to the UK on a false passport then claimed asylum. In 1995 he issued a fatwa to justify the killing of muslims who renounced their faith. He followed this with various sermons calling on muslims to kill the families of Egyptian police and army officers and told his Finsbury Park congregation that Americans should be attacked wherever they were and that there was no difference between American, English and Jewish people. Thanks to the ECHR it took us years and lots of money to eventually deport him back to Jordan. However, the damage was already done by his hate preaching.

In my opinion the Treason Act needs to be brought up to date in order to correctly match the modern threat. High Treason is currently defined as a criminal act against the sovereign, her heirs and successors. It should be redefined as an indiscriminate crime (whether planned or actually perpetrated) against the people - where the aim is to indiscriminately murder, maim or injure citizens of the UK.

The crime of treason, if brought up to date, should attract a penalty of death or life imprisonment. The death penalty should be automatic where the target is a police officer or a serving member of the armed forces (i.e. those who are given the responsibility to protect the rest of us). Treason should also automatically mean the deportation of the individual and his/her family if not British. If they are British citizens, their passports should be withdrawn - an indication that they are persona non grata and their 'rights' curtailed. If another country is willing to accept them, then they should be allowed to leave, but never allowed to return. The same should apply to Islamic fundamentalists returning from Syria. Make them persona non grata with passports revoked.

[Jimgward]

France comes under the ECHR and doesn't mess about with hate preachers. They simply deport and face any backlash later, pay fines and move on. Britain are too prissy about rule following. We are seen as a 'gentle' race, with lots of please and thank yous. Do you know that many European languages dont even have as word for please? The point is that we believe if a sign says Stop, we stop. If a rule says No, we follow it. Sometimes, the country needs to break rules for the general good. Hate preachers being a prime example. Hate marches another.

[Firefly]

Blimey Jim, we actually agree on something ! Longer prison sentences for terrorists is not the way to go, that results in Joe public picking up the tab for keeping this scum alive. I'm with Royal, I think his answer would help, but who will make it become law ? Our Government, of whatever party, are too afraid to act, what of God knows.

My two Granddaughters who attended the Manchester concert on 22nd, and thankfully made it home ok, also attended the Manchester concert last night, I'm so proud of both of them for not being afraid of this scum.

Jackie

[PhotoLady]

Interesting comments regarding the Q'uran.....
Being a total atheist and disregarding any religious indoctrination, a friend of mine has been having a conversation with a number of others on her social media page about Muslims, their beliefs and trying to explain it is not all Muslims who are attacking as terrorists but those who are radicalists. My friend was brought up in Ireland (the north) and quoted a couple of lines from Deuteronomy 13, which I admit I knew nothing of.

So I Googled it and this is what I found

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18 because you obey the Lord your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

Scary stuff this religion No wonder there are so many nut jobs in our world! It only takes someone easily led to take on board those kind of statements and there's another one off down the road to the point of no return.

It's just as well the majority are normal, everyday people who have a true sense of well being and know that what is written is clearly not an instruction.

[cyprusgrump]

Interesting comments regarding the Q'uran.....
Being a total atheist and disregarding any religious indoctrination, a friend of mine has been having a conversation with a number of others on her social media page about Muslims, their beliefs and trying to explain it is not all Muslims who are attacking as terrorists but those who are radicalists. My friend was brought up in Ireland (the north) and quoted a couple of lines from Deuteronomy 13, which I admit I knew nothing of.

So I Googled it and this is what I found


Scary stuff this religion No wonder there are so many nut jobs in our world! It only takes someone easily led to take on board those kind of statements and there's another one off down the road to the point of no return.

It's just as well the majority are normal, everyday people who have a true sense of well being and know that what is written is clearly not an instruction.

*sigh*

The difference is that Christianity has generally speaking left the more ghastly aspects of religion behind in the past where they belong.

There are of course one or two bizarre aspects of it visible and the odd Christian nutjob.

But Islam has not left them behind. It still views the Q'uran as the book to run your life by.

Admittedly, there are 'moderate muslims' but generally speaking the Muslim world lives according to an ancient ideology.

Women are generally treated as second class, women are stoned to death, women do suffer FGM, young women are forced into marriages with their cousin, gays are thrown off buildings, 'criminals' are beheaded in public, animals are slaughtered in (what we used to consider) a barbaric manner...

While people claim islam is a 'Religion of Peace' and justify terrorist atrocities on the basis of 'Christianity used to do a lot worse' these appalling events of the past few weeks will continue.

[smudger]

"Smudger why is Ariana Grande a brave girl?"

Anyone who returned to that arena last night was brave. To be the main act on the programme is in my opinion, nerve racking, for whomever it was. A rerun by some lunatic daesh recruit could have focussed on any single individual. She chose to return, to rerun the concert which ended in tragedy for so many people. She could have been a prime target in daesh terms, she knew nothing different. So, in my opinion - brave, as were all the attendees.

[smudger]

Interesting comments regarding the Q'uran.....
"Being a total atheist and disregarding any religious indoctrination, a friend of mine has been having a conversation with a number of others on her social media page about Muslims, their beliefs and trying to explain it is not all Muslims who are attacking as terrorists but those who are radicalists. My friend was brought up in Ireland (the north) and quoted a couple of lines from Deuteronomy 13, which I admit I knew nothing of.

So I Googled it and this is what I found


Scary stuff this religion No wonder there are so many nut jobs in our world! It only takes someone easily led to take on board those kind of statements and there's another one off down the road to the point of no return.

It's just as well the majority are normal, everyday people who have a true sense of well being and know that what is written is clearly not an instruction."

The massive difference between Christianity and all other 'religions' is simply Jesus Christ.

He alone atoned for all the sins of mankind by dying on the cross, meaning we simply have to acknowledge and repent of our sins to receive the forgiveness of God.

No other religion offers this forgiveness. Which is why Islam is totally unforgiving and demands followers comply with its restrictions totally and with no concessions, no way of turning back, no forgiveness. Compliance is the only option.

In my opinion this simply makes Islam a regime and not a religion.

[PaphosAL]

Is Islam a 'regime' or a 'religion'? Neither, it would seem... In most Islamic countries, it's all to do with political POWER, using Ayatollahs as 'religious' support for the dictators in so-called 'Government'. Islam has two basic schisms: Sunni (invariably the rich and powerful minority) and Sh-ia (the underdog majority).

The two have been fighting mediaeval wars with each other for the last 5,000 years, and will continue to do so for the next 5,000 years! The only thing they have in common is that they both believe that all other non-Islam religions are infidels and that all members of those religions must be slaughtered...

Peaceful co-existence does not appear to exist on their agenda. (So why move to UK in the first place, I wonder?) Instead, they seem to want Islam to rule the world, exterminate all infidels, then perhaps have a glorious WW3 to see if the Sunnis or Sh-ias prevail (taking us back to the Dark Ages)?

Back on Topic: London bridges ugently require traffic / pedestrian seperation using Armco Barriers down each kerbside. Relatively inexpensive and could be installed in a week. I'm amazed this wasn't implemented after the previous Westminster Bridge cowardly atrocity.

Also, have Police checkpoints on the south side of each bridge (rather like the 'Ring of Steel' around the City of London) watching for dodgy-looking characters?

Cheers- AL

[boycott]

Why is it that if you die in a terrorist attack (as in Manchester/London) you are reported as killed rather than murdered?

[PaphosAL]

Why is it that if you die in a terrorist attack (as in Manchester/London) you are reported as killed rather than murdered?

That is a very good point, boycott... IMHO, news stats should have read "4 Murdered by Terrorists: 3 Terrorists shot by Police, dozens more critically injured in hospital from maniacal knife wounds"

AL

[smudger]

Glad we can agree on something so crucial and fundamental rather than the rudiments of Brexit et al!