Manchester Arena bombing - The Politics

[Dominic]

I am splitting this thread in two. The political angle will remain here. The non political part will return to the General Discussions.

If you want to get angry, please do so in this thread. But save your anger for the terrorists, not for each other.

[cyprusgrump]

truck-prayer-garbage.jpg (59.91 KiB) Viewed 6782 times

[Varky]

These attacks have about as much to do with the Muslim Community as Catholics had to do with the attacks in the 70's, 80's and 90's at the hands of the IRA.
If you cannot see that then you'll never have a solution to your problem.

Sorry but you are absolutely wrong....these evil people are allowed to exist, to plan, to spout their idiology within their communities...be it Islamic or indeed Catholic in Northern Ireland...sometimes because the community are fearful for their own lives, and sometimes because they are unwilling to go against their own, it is a disease ..it is only when the community, as happened In Northern Ireland become sick of the violence that is committed in their name, that they rise up and force change..that refuse to harbour and provide succour to the terrorists, to the evil they spread....of course not all Muslims are terrorists..but the small minority that are cannot be allowed to thrive amongst them..the community needs to look inwards, identify and acknowledge the evil that resides amongst them and provide them no,shelter, no place to hide.

I agree with Hudswell (Surprise, surprise) but I would go further and, if possible, I would deport any immediate family members of the terrorist unless they, the family, had actively warned the security services beforehand of a likely attack.

[cyprusgrump]

These attacks have about as much to do with the Muslim Community as Catholics had to do with the attacks in the 70's, 80's and 90's at the hands of the IRA.
If you cannot see that then you'll never have a solution to your problem.

Sorry but you are absolutely wrong....these evil people are allowed to exist, to plan, to spout their idiology within their communities...be it Islamic or indeed Catholic in Northern Ireland...sometimes because the community are fearful for their own lives, and sometimes because they are unwilling to go against their own, it is a disease ..it is only when the community, as happened In Northern Ireland become sick of the violence that is committed in their name, that they rise up and force change..that refuse to harbour and provide succour to the terrorists, to the evil they spread....of course not all Muslims are terrorists..but the small minority that are cannot be allowed to thrive amongst them..the community needs to look inwards, identify and acknowledge the evil that resides amongst them and provide them no,shelter, no place to hide.

I agree with Hudswell (Surprise, surprise) but I would go further and, if possible, I would deport any immediate family members of the terrorist unless they, the family, had actively warned the security services beforehand of a likely attack.

And raze their mosque and deport the Imam...

[Firefly]

Hear Hear !

[cyprusgrump]

Hear Hear !

I forgot to add, 'and salt the earth afterwards'...

[Varky]

Immigrants coming to the UK should only be allowed entry if they are prepared to integrate fully with our systems and culture. We should not have to integrate with their systems and culture and we should not be expected to by all these do-gooders and so-called human rights protectors.

If immigrants feel that they can't integrate on this basis then they should be sent back to wherever they came from. If the do-gooders and human rights protectors don't like this then perhaps they should be following these migrants and addressing the human rights situation in the migrants country of origin and let us see how they get on there.

[Jimgward]

Immigrants coming to the UK should only be allowed entry if they are prepared to integrate fully with our systems and culture. We should not have to integrate with their systems and culture and we should not be expected to by all these do-gooders and so-called human rights protectors.

If immigrants feel that they can't integrate on this basis then they should be sent back to wherever they came from. If the do-gooders and human rights protectors don't like this then perhaps they should be following these migrants and addressing the human rights situation in the migrants country of origin and let us see how they get on there.

So, should part of that be, to learn English as part of that?

[Varky]

Immigrants coming to the UK should only be allowed entry if they are prepared to integrate fully with our systems and culture. We should not have to integrate with their systems and culture and we should not be expected to by all these do-gooders and so-called human rights protectors.

If immigrants feel that they can't integrate on this basis then they should be sent back to wherever they came from. If the do-gooders and human rights protectors don't like this then perhaps they should be following these migrants and addressing the human rights situation in the migrants country of origin and let us see how they get on there.

So, should part of that be, to learn English as part of that?

If that is considered to be part of integration, then, yes. That might save thousands of pounds in employing translators in our public services system., but this would not be the main reason for insisting on integration.

[cyprusgrump]

Agree with Bassman and Varky...

Appeasement is a large part of the problem here. We invite people from a culture that is completely alien to our own yet bend over backwards to accommodate it.

Not just translation services but in so many other areas - perhaps if we changed our attitude (or more accurately that of our politicians) fewer would come and those that did arrive would integrate in the way that others manage to do.

We should ban Halal slaughter (and kosher) on grounds of animal cruelty for starters.

Ban Sharia courts. Ban polygamy (which I believe is allowed as long as the marriages took place abroad) and enforce benefits for one wife and two kids only.

I don't believe in banning the burka (the government shouldn't be able to tell us what to wear) but we should remove any accommodation of it - i.e. the face should be uncovered where we would expect anybody else to have their face uncovered. And no special rooms and female security staff at airports to protect their modesty.

No changing school timetables to accommodate Ramadan.

In fact, no special accommodation whatsoever on the basis of their religion.

[PhotoLady]

So as part of this integration discussion - how many UK immigrants currently residing in Cyprus are fully conversant with the Greek language that they can read, write and hold a full conversation?

Integration has to work all ways if those are the rules you want to lay down.....

[cyprusgrump]

So as part of this integration discussion - how many UK immigrants currently residing in Cyprus are fully conversant with the Greek language that they can read, write and hold a full conversation?

Integration has to work all ways if those are the rules you want to lay down.....

I just knew that one of you lefties would post that!

One of the attractions of moving to Cyprus - part of the decision making process in fact - for me was the fact that we didn't have to learn Greek as the island was very Anglicised. Even the road signs are in English.

Indeed, our Cypriot friends actively discouraged us from learning Greek - apart from the 'hello', 'goodbye', 'please', 'thank you' essentials.

And our cultures and values are also very similar.

You simply can't equate not learning Greek in Cyprus with importing people from the third world who want, no demand a different culture be imposed on the UK - some parts of which are abhorrent to us...

[Dominic]

Indeed, our Cypriot friends actively discouraged us from learning Greek - apart from the 'hello', 'goodbye', 'please', 'thank you' essentials.

And our cultures and values are also very similar.

You simply can't equate not learning Greek in Cyprus with importing people from the third world who want, no demand a different culture be imposed on the UK - some parts of which are abhorrent to us...

Total and utter cop out! Yes you can.

Besides, learning the lingo is polite, even if you are ham-fisted at it.

I'm not saying everybody should go and learn Greek. I am saying if you lecture other people about non-integration you should do so from a firm footing. Lead by example.

[cyprusgrump]

Indeed, our Cypriot friends actively discouraged us from learning Greek - apart from the 'hello', 'goodbye', 'please', 'thank you' essentials.

And our cultures and values are also very similar.

You simply can't equate not learning Greek in Cyprus with importing people from the third world who want, no demand a different culture be imposed on the UK - some parts of which are abhorrent to us...

Total and utter cop out! Yes you can.

Besides, learning the lingo is polite, even if you are ham-fisted at it.

I'm not saying everybody should go and learn Greek. I am saying if you lecture other people about non-integration you should do so from a firm footing. Lead by example.

Not a cop out at all...

As I said, it was part of my decision making process. Everybody here spoke English when we arrived (14 years ago) and positively discouraged us from learning Greek. Partly of course because Pissouri was a tourist town and the locals wanted to practice and expand their English.

Some Anecdata: An English friend was working for a local mechanic as a book keeper. When he discovered she was taking Greek lessons he went mental. It suited him (and others I'm sure) to be able to speak in a language that she could not understand.

So no, not really a cop out.

And not learning Greek (for the reasons outlined above) but otherwise integrating into the village community and having local friends is somewhat different to what we are discussing isn't it...?

We're talking Halal slaughter, Sharia courts, FGM, segregation of men and women, forced marriages, etc. I was reading the other day that in (somewhere in the UK, I forget where) 20% of infant mortality is caused by interbreeding of the local Pakistani community...

So no, me learning Greek in Cyprus would not set an example... Even if every expat did nothing would change in the UK...

...and I didn't claim that forcing them to speak English would either...

[Dominic]

And what about when you venture further afield than Pissouri?

[cyprusgrump]

And what about when you venture further afield than Pissouri?

In the 14 years I've lived here I've never had an issue communicating with Cypriots - anywhere on the island.

But, again, it seems I need to point out that there is no equivalence whatsoever between my being unable to speak Greek in Cyprus* and forcing your daughter to marry her first cousin against her will.






* I completely acknowledge that there were places I could have moved to where I would have had to learn the local language - Cyprus was not and is not one of them.

[cyprusgrump]

For the record:

It wasn't me that said anybody should be forced to learn English and I don't believe they should.

I do believe it is not the place of the government to provide translations and translation services to English for those that choose to live in the UK.

When I started a business in Cyprus I had to get somebody to translate the VAT form (and others) for me - I didn't in any way expect it to be provided in English or have somebody translate it for me out of taxpayer funds.

[Varky]

So as part of this integration discussion - how many UK immigrants currently residing in Cyprus are fully conversant with the Greek language that they can read, write and hold a full conversation?
Integration has to work all ways if those are the rules you want to lay down.....

One main difference is that we do integrate, by donating to local charities, hospitals etc. and we live amongst the local community.

What we don't do is to harbour terrorists and protect them by not involving ourselves with the local security services by hiding behind our religion.

[Firefly]

No-one has pointed out that should a British, non Greek speaking person require a translator, there is no way that the Cypriot Government would foot the bill. If you reside in Britain and you do not speak English, you should have sufficient finance to supply a translator yourself.

As has been said, we have gone way too far to accommodate immigrants. Why the Government cannot see the resentment and anger that this latest atrocity is causing, amongst normally ordinary British Citizens is beyond me, I only have to speak to my friends and neighbours to see the frustration and anger. To target our innocent children is the last straw.

If nothing is done to get rid of the known terrorist groups here, the Government may find that it reaches a situation that they maybe can't handle.

Jackie

[Dominic]

So as part of this integration discussion - how many UK immigrants currently residing in Cyprus are fully conversant with the Greek language that they can read, write and hold a full conversation?
Integration has to work all ways if those are the rules you want to lay down.....

One main difference is that we do integrate, by donating to local charities, hospitals etc. and we live amongst the local community.

What we don't do is to harbour terrorists and protect them by not involving ourselves with the local security services by hiding behind our religion.

Neither do the vast majority of immigrants in the Uk. And what do you mean by hiding behind their religeon? All the local mosques in our old neck of the woods were at pains to have open days and to get to know the community. The same was true for the large Nepalese community (Aldershot). Their temple has regular open days.

Here's a true story. There was an old abandoned building in Aldershot, going to ruin. It was next to the Football Ground. The local Nepalese community raised money and bought the building, turning it into a Buddhist temple. They regularly hold open days and give away food and drink etc. Now some people moan that the building should have been used for something else. Or that there is nowhere for them to park, despite the fact that all the football fans are perfectly able to park. The Nepalese just can't win.

I am not saying for one moment that all immigrants are fine. I don't think the vast majority of immigrants would say that either.