Theresa May's perfectly pointless trip to Africa

[Jim B]

You could ask the same question in reverse; what's all the fuss about leaving the EU when we already have access to the world markets. It's already cost the UK billions of pounds and they haven't even left yet and the Brexit Guru, Mogg said it's going to take up to fifty years to show any benefits (if at all).
Jim

[jeba]

what's all the fuss about staying in the EU ?

About keeping your option to find a job within the EU even if there are equally qualified EU-citizens who might want it (and get priority)?
About being able to move there without much hassle?
About having access to their public health system?
About keeping your driver license valid for more than 6 months?
About being able to study there without having to pay university fees (e. g. in Germany)?
About preventing the pound from dropping?

Just to name a few reasons which are coming to mind immediately.

[trevnhil]

I have no idea where you are referring to with this comment.. " About keeping your driver license valid for more than 6 months?" ???????????

[jeba]

EU citizens pay University Fees in the UK, well they are supposed to

But Uk citizens don´t in Germany (don´t know about other countries). They only have to pay a small fee (€ 120 - 150 per semester) for which they´d get subsidised food and free public transport (and housing if they´re lucky).

The EU doesn't employ Third Nation nationals?, new one on me...

It does, but only for jobs for which the employer can prove to the labour departement that there is no EU national available (again, that´s the case in my home country of Germany and I assume it´s an EU regulation). There are few exemptions (like being married to a citizen/permanent resident etc.)

Move without hassle? You know that? I doubt if much will change

Maybe, maybe not - but currently there is still a risk things might change for Brits.

I don't have access to the Cypriot Health System..I have to go private

You´d have access to German public health insurance without even being asked for preexisting conditions. Brits are at risk that this will change after Brexit.

Driving licence? why on earth would a uk driving licence be only valid for 6 months...EU countries do accept Non eu licences already..

If you´re resididing in a country for more than 6 months your third country´s driving license will no longer be accepted. Depending on where you´re from you´d have to either swap your license or get a new one from scratch (again that´s the situation in Germany and I assume it´s an EU regulation). Have fun passing the exam in German.

[Jim B]

What Jeba said about driving licences is correct. My wife's driving licence was only valid for six months and she had to take her test again in Cyprus because there was no bilateral agreement to accept each countries driving licence.

Jim

[WHL]

Varky, you have it.
The trade will be beneficial to both the African people and UK.
The Chinese are in Africa to offload their junk and buy up as much of the mineral wealth of the place as they can, and incidentally ensure their brand of Marxism, along with Islam, the machete and mobile take Africa over, and undo any remaining good that was achieved by the Christian missionaries, with their schools, churches, hospitals and dispensaries. [and- above all- their message].

Jon

This is a sick joke ,right

[jeba]

Jeba.....I don't live in Germany.....

I merely gave Germany as an example because being German myself I know a thing or two about it. I guess (but I´m not 100% sure as I´m not a lawyer) that the points I made apply to other EU countries as well. Barring a successful end to the Brexit negogiations they will affect those UK citizens who might want to move to Germany (and other EU countries) e. g. to work or study there. And they are just the most obvious points which could be made. There are many more (e. g. dual citizenship, recognition of UK qualifications etc.) You can´t deny that these aren´t potential downsides to Brexit. To some people they even have the potential to be life-changing (and not in a good way).

[jeba]

Jeba.....I don't live in Germany.....

I merely gave Germany as an example because being German myself I know a thing or two about it. I guess (but I´m not 100% sure as I´m not a lawyer) that the points I made apply to other EU countries as well. Barring a successful end to the Brexit negogiations they will affect those UK citizens who might want to move to Germany (and other EU countries) e. g. to work or study there. And they are just the most obvious points which could be made. There are many more (e. g. dual citizenship, recognition of UK qualifications etc.) You can´t deny that these aren´t potential downsides to Brexit. To some people they even have the potential to be life-changing (and not in a good way).

Jeba, I was never quite sure how Monty Python translated into German....but "Always look on the bright side of Life" is a must listen....yes there is uncertainty.....and a lot of speculation...perhaps,we should just wait and see...

Well, not being British that´s easy for me as I won´t be affected. If I was however, I´d support another referendum (and a referendum to end all referenda).

[Jim B]

Many Universities in EU countries are free to EU Students, Scotland for instance.
I imagine passengers on the unsinkable Titanic were looking on the bright side of life as well.
What's that saying; "Forewarned is Forearmed.

Jim

[Jim B]

The Presidentt of Kenya said to May, where have you been for the last thirty years. I'm sorry but I just cringe with embarrassment when I see May looking foolish and becoming a joke in the media trying to drum up trade deals that the UK already has as a member of the EU. I haven't read or seen anything to say she has made any trade deals, your optimism is ahead of reality.
Unless there is a deal of some sort the reality like it or not is the default option and as I keep repeating Cyprus is only one of 27 countries the UK is negotiating with and any agreement is a joint decision which Cyprus will have to abide by whether they like it or not.
Cyprus is already being affected by Brexit, the property market is dead for both new builds and resales.
Jim

[Firefly]

Jeba

Maybe you could have a referendum in Germany, the result might surprise you.

Jackie

[Jim B]

Allan your post appears to have disappeared.
I can only quote my wife who works for an Estate Agent and comments made by British who tell her they are reluctant to purchase properties until they know what the situation will be like after Brexit.
Of course you will disagree but there are also few suitable properties in locations where people want to live (like Universal for instance). Most Agents will not touch properties without Title Deeds and copies are required before they will put them on their books. Another point is that buyers want properties for the same price as they were when the banks crashed in 2013/14 rather than the current market value which is not helping sales either.
I also meant to add that long term rentals are in short supply at the moment, most rental agencies have very few on their books.
Jim

[jeba]

Jeba

Maybe you could have a referendum in Germany, the result might surprise you.

Jackie

German constitution doesn´t allow for that and I´m a fan of representative democracy anyway (well, not an ardent fan but to me it seems the lesser evil). Also, as long as Merkel supports being a member of the EU people would vote accordingly as she is still by far the most popular politician in Germany due to her personal integrity (even if the percentage of supporters dropped from above 70% to currently 48%, probably due to her migration policies). That said, in hindsight I wish the Eurozone had never been established. Being a member of the EEC (Norway style) without Eastern Europe would probably be good enough for Germany in my view. But now Germany is trapped as a blowup of the Eurozone would mean that German taxpayers would have to wave goodbye to hundreds of billions of Euros (because central banks of South European countries would be unable to settle their TARGET balances which were more than € 900 billion in Germany´s favour as of 2 months ago after having risen from € 760 billion by mid of last year). Still, maybe it would be the lesser evil to have a blowup now rather than later. But I´m distracting from the issue of this thread.

[Firefly]

Not at all, very interesting Jeba.

Jackie

[Jimgym]

Cyprus is already being affected by Brexit, the property market is dead for both new builds and resales.
Jim

I deleted my original comment Jim as I am becoming increasingly tired of Brexit being (wrongly) blamed for anything that happens in the world. Here is the link to Nigel Howarth's website stating that property sales in Cyprus are increasing, not decreasing as you say. http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers. ... d=00153406

[Jim B]

Hi Allan
Maybe the word DEAD was a bit OTT but the housing market is very quiet in Paphos especially with British buyers at the moment and most of the people buying properties in Paphos are Romanian, Georgian and Bulgarian. The market maybe buoyant in Nicosia which is generally Cypriots buying there and Limmasol which is predominately Russian buyers. The company the wife works for want her to go to Limmasol to help with Russian clientele as she speaks fluent Russian. There are two schools of thought with the British buyers at the moment, a very small number are buying to get their feet under the table as it were but the vast majority are waiting to see what pans out next March after Brexit.

Jim

[Jim B]

Hudswell

You could be right.

Jim

[kingfisher]

@whl Friday 8.28 am
From someone who knows what they are talking about: [MATHEW PARIS- THE TIMES- SUBSCRIPTION ONLY- HENCE FULL TEXT]

"As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God
Missionaries, not aid money, are the solution to Africa's biggest problem - the crushing passivity of the people's mindset
Matthew Parris
December 27 2008, 12:00am, The Times
Before Christmas I returned, after 45 years, to the country that as a boy I knew as Nyasaland. Today it's Malawi, and The Times Christmas Appeal includes a small British charity working there. Pump Aid helps rural communities to install a simple pump, letting people keep their village wells sealed and clean. I went to see this work.
It inspired me, renewing my flagging faith in development charities. But travelling in Malawi refreshed another belief, too: one I've been trying to banish all my life, but an observation I've been unable to avoid since my African childhood. It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my world view, and has embarrassed my growing belief that there is no God.
Now a confirmed atheist, I've become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do. Education and training alone will not do. In Africa Christianity changes people's hearts. It brings a spiritual transformation. The rebirth is real. The change is good.
I used to avoid this truth by applauding - as you can - the practical work of mission churches in Africa. It's a pity, I would say, that salvation is part of the package, but Christians black and white, working in Africa, do heal the sick, do teach people to read and write; and only the severest kind of secularist could see a mission hospital or school and say the world would be better without it. I would allow that if faith was needed to motivate missionaries to help, then, fine: but what counted was the help, not the faith.
But this doesn't fit the facts. Faith does more than support the missionary; it is also transferred to his flock. This is the effect that matters so immensely, and which I cannot help observing.
First, then, the observation. We had friends who were missionaries, and as a child I stayed often with them; I also stayed, alone with my little brother, in a traditional rural African village. In the city we had working for us Africans who had converted and were strong believers. The Christians were always different. Far from having cowed or confined its converts, their faith appeared to have liberated and relaxed them. There was a liveliness, a curiosity, an engagement with the world - a directness in their dealings with others - that seemed to be missing in traditional African life. They stood tall.
At 24, travelling by land across the continent reinforced this impression. From Algiers to Niger, Nigeria, Cameroon and the Central African Republic, then right through the Congo to Rwanda, Tanzania and Kenya, four student friends and I drove our old Land Rover to Nairobi.
We slept under the stars, so it was important as we reached the more populated and lawless parts of the sub-Sahara that every day we find somewhere safe by nightfall. Often near a mission.
Whenever we entered a territory worked by missionaries, we had to acknowledge that something changed in the faces of the people we passed and spoke to: something in their eyes, the way they approached you direct, man-to-man, without looking down or away. They had not become more deferential towards strangers - in some ways less so - but more open.
This time in Malawi it was the same. I met no missionaries. You do not encounter missionaries in the lobbies of expensive hotels discussing development strategy documents, as you do with the big NGOs. But instead I noticed that a handful of the most impressive African members of the Pump Aid team (largely from Zimbabwe) were, privately, strong Christians. “Privately” because the charity is entirely secular and I never heard any of its team so much as mention religion while working in the villages. But I picked up the Christian references in our conversations. One, I saw, was studying a devotional textbook in the car. One, on Sunday, went off to church at dawn for a two-hour service.
It would suit me to believe that their honesty, diligence and optimism in their work was unconnected with personal faith. Their work was secular, but surely affected by what they were. What they were was, in turn, influenced by a conception of man's place in the Universe that Christianity had taught.
There's long been a fashion among Western academic sociologists for placing tribal value systems within a ring fence, beyond critiques founded in our own culture: “theirs” and therefore best for “them”; authentic and of intrinsically equal worth to ours.
I don't follow this. I observe that tribal belief is no more peaceable than ours; and that it suppresses individuality. People think collectively; first in terms of the community, extended family and tribe. This rural-traditional mindset feeds into the “big man” and gangster politics of the African city: the exaggerated respect for a swaggering leader, and the (literal) inability to understand the whole idea of loyal opposition.
Anxiety - fear of evil spirits, of ancestors, of nature and the wild, of a tribal hierarchy, of quite everyday things - strikes deep into the whole structure of rural African thought. Every man has his place and, call it fear or respect, a great weight grinds down the individual spirit, stunting curiosity. People won't take the initiative, won't take things into their own hands or on their own shoulders.
How can I, as someone with a foot in both camps, explain? When the philosophical tourist moves from one world view to another he finds - at the very moment of passing into the new - that he loses the language to describe the landscape to the old. But let me try an example: the answer given by Sir Edmund Hillary to the question: Why climb the mountain? “Because it's there,” he said.
To the rural African mind, this is an explanation of why one would not climb the mountain. It's... well, there. Just there. Why interfere? Nothing to be done about it, or with it. Hillary's further explanation - that nobody else had climbed it - would stand as a second reason for passivity.
Christianity, post-Reformation and post-Luther, with its teaching of a direct, personal, two-way link between the individual and God, unmediated by the collective, and unsubordinate to any other human being, smashes straight through the philosphical/spiritual framework I've just described. It offers something to hold on to to those anxious to cast off a crushing tribal groupthink. That is why and how it liberates.
Those who want Africa to walk tall amid 21st-century global competition must not kid themselves that providing the material means or even the knowhow that accompanies what we call development will make the change. A whole belief system must first be supplanted.
And I'm afraid it has to be supplanted by another. Removing Christian evangelism from the African equation may leave the continent at the mercy of a malign fusion of Nike, the witch doctor, the mobile phone and the machete."

[Uncle D]

A whole belief system must first be supplanted.
And I'm afraid it has to be supplanted by another. Removing Christian evangelism from the African equation may leave the continent at the mercy of a malign fusion of Nike, the witch doctor, the mobile phone and the machete."

and Islam

[WHL]

Not a wasted trip at all, her dancing lessons are coming on a treat.