Is the tide finally turning?

[Jimgward]

Amos

The first post was the result of a poll. I posted links to numerous polls that said differently... ~As Dominic said, people gravitate towards opinions that match theirs and the OP chose that poll as she is in favour of Brexit.... even if the poll is an isolated view of a small number of people and many more polls say the opposite. Polls are never 100% accurate. accept that, but when almost all of them show the majority now in favour of remaining, the vast majority think we will be worse off, the vast majority think the negotiations are a disaster.... I'm afraid it looks more and more like the Brexit referendum was a poor reflection on overall opinion, once facts are known. It won't change, sadly, but it's such a pity that too many view the referendum as a once-only view, when little else in life is expected to run its course after bad news....

Well Jimgward I suspect the polls you posted were ones that reflected your opinions.
Polls can be misleading and often get it wrong.
The referendum was an accurate reflection at the time it was taken, and the UK Parliament had voted to respect the result (whichever way it went) and to act on it.
The UK Govt IS acting on it - I say that in my opinion the MPS and British public should unite and get behind that action.
As the EU is playing hardball for reasons well known and publicised in the media and on TV, I stick by my earlier posts that I think UK should walk away and on 29th March, 2019, just leave and do their own thing.
It is reported that the UK's Brexit secretary, Davies, is preparing an action plan to do just that.
At least one person in the UK Govt has some sense!
BTW - what bad news do you refer to? All I see in the International press is good news, UK economy doing well, employment up, etc.
Even the UK currency seems to be going "north" again.
Amos.

Amos, the link I provided, I'd suggest you look at it, as it shows multiple polls. So, I am not choosing one to quote. I actually said pools are notoriously wrong and the reason why you have to look at multiple...

The referendum WAS an accurate reflection at that time. The UK government IS acting on it. The dissenters, strangely, are mainly in the Tory party ranks!

The bad news, as Dominic said, includes a weak pound, a GDP that's falling, inflation hitting 3%, while wages are still stagnant. Shortages of skilled workers. Companies shutting or pulling out of the UK. Uncertainty breeding lack of business confidence. Business leaders warning of the economy taking a nosedive...

The only good news is that unemployment is still low.

[exodus]

A perfect example of a biased right wing rant, & another reason why the opposing sides will never agree.

If you refer to me I am neither right wing or left wing. I am a non-EU observer, but a friend of UK as all my Country are, and alarmed at the way in UK the populace is not uniting and getting behind the Govt. - indeed that even in the Govt there are serious splits.
It is possible not to agree, but yet work together for the better good of the country..
Thank you.
Amos.

[Dominic]

A perfect example of a biased right wing rant, & another reason why the opposing sides will never agree.

If you refer to me I am neither right wing or left wing. I am a non-EU observer, but a friend of UK as all my Country are, and alarmed at the way in UK the populace is not uniting and getting behind the Govt. - indeed that even in the Govt there are serious splits.
It is possible not to agree, but yet work together for the better good of the country..
Thank you.
Amos.

Cogs123 was referring to a post I moved to the POLITICS section. This is the POLITICS FOR MODERATES section. They weren't referring to you.

[exodus]

A perfect example of a biased right wing rant, & another reason why the opposing sides will never agree.

If you refer to me I am neither right wing or left wing. I am a non-EU observer, but a friend of UK as all my Country are, and alarmed at the way in UK the populace is not uniting and getting behind the Govt. - indeed that even in the Govt there are serious splits.
It is possible not to agree, but yet work together for the better good of the country..
Thank you.
Amos.

Cogs123 was referring to a post I moved to the POLITICS section. This is the POLITICS FOR MODERATES section. They weren't referring to you.

Thank you. I would not want to offend anyone.
Amos.

[Poppy]

Amos I think you are invariably polite and it is refreshing to have the views of a "non Brit"

[exodus]

Amos I think you are invariably polite and it is refreshing to have the views of a "non Brit"

You are very kind Poppy.
Amos.

[Firefly]

Poppy

Agree totally, it's good to see us as others see us.

Jackie

[Royal]

It seems to me that you Brits ought to get your act together, and act as ONE.
From the Cabinet, down to the public, and down to expats living in Cyprus, everyone seems to be arguing either pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit.
Excuse me as an ignorant outsider looking on - but didn't you have a referendum to decide that?
The EU seem scared of Brexit because they fear the breakup of the EU.
As per an earlier post of mine on another thread TIME TO WALK AWAY and ALL of you work to making a success of being outside of the EU!
In my country if we acted like you do I suspect we wouldn't exist anymore - the likes of Iran and Hesbollah would see to that.
Amos.

@Amos, Jon

But human nature doesn't work like that. Surely you can't expect nearly 50% of the voters to suddenly change their mind?

Amos,

You are quite right of course. However, we are living in strange political times in the UK (and in truth, elsewhere, including the USA). As Oxfordboy has posted, it’s quite clear that those who voted Remain are clearly not planning anytime soon to get behind the democratic will of the majority of the people - and why should they? Reasons range from “it’s not the majority, as many youngsters failed to vote”; “no-one voted for Hard Brexit”; “Brexiteers are the uneducated and unintelligent people who should listen to their intellectual superiors”; “Brexiteers are xenophobes at best and racists at worst”; “those who voted Brexit were duped”; “things have changed - we need another referendum”; “it’s an act of irreparable self harm and must be ignored”; “many wrinklies who voted leave are now dead - a second referendum would have a different result” etc etc ad infinitum. If Remainers had won the referendum (as I and many Brexiteers believed would happen) there would NOT have been the constant brouhaha that we have seen over the last 16 months decrying the result. The mainstream media and the BBC in particular have been totally biased in their reporting, presumably in a vain attempt to change the democratic will of the people.

However, we are where we are, and the views on this Forum are a microcosm of the wider views of the British public. To quote Rudyard Kipling - “East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.” Who knows whether views have changed one way or the other? Remainers will tell you that they have. Brexiteers will tell you they haven’t. Let’s not forget the polls failed to accurately forecast the actual referendum result, the US Election result, the Labour leadership election result and the last UK General Election result. Why, therefore, should anyone give any credence to any current poll? The bottom line is not to trust polls - they are all fundamentally flawed.

I am a Brexiteer. I wasn’t duped. I’m not stupid. I’m not a wrinklie. I haven’t changed my mind on Brexit. No-one on this Forum, as far as I am aware, has changed their mind regarding Remain or Leave. However, I am aware of some on the Forum who are Remainers at heart yet who nevertheless have accepted the referendum result and whilst not doing a u-turn, they have quietly accepted that the UK will leave the EU. Many others, however, are fighting tooth and nail to convince the rest of us that Remainers are right and all Brexiteers are wrong. In trying to defend their position, they will give all sorts of links, articles, headlines and opinions ‘proving’ their position. Once again, I will say that no-one on this Forum (that I am aware of) has had a change of heart, one way or the other. Unlike many, I can faithfully say that I have taken the time to read all links, articles, headlines and opinions offered by BOTH sides although many others on the Forum can’t get past the author or the source and refuse to read further. That’s not a balanced view in my opinion.

We are clearly a divided nation at present and I will reveal that I have changed my mind on one thing only.

Last year, I was four square behind Theresa May. I called her a safe pair of hands. Sadly, I don’t believe that she has proven herself capable of leading our great nation through Brexit. She has tried to balance her Cabinet with a broad mix of Remainers and Brexiteers (much like the opposing views on this Forum) but it’s simply not working. Like this Forum, opinions are totally polarised and our country is becoming weaker because of the in-fighting. Sadly, I have reached the conclusion that we need a more biased cabinet. All Remainers should be dismissed and in order to carry out the will of the people, we need a cabinet of Brexiteers - whether ‘Hard Brexiteers’ or ‘Soft Brexiteers’ - it doesn’t matter to me any more. The middle way is clearly not working and the entire nation is being held ransom to in-party fighting which is playing directly into the hands of the EU.

It’s time to stop.

[Dominic]

Many others, however, are fighting tooth and nail to convince the rest of us that Remainers are right and all Brexiteers are wrong. In trying to defend their position, they will give all sorts of links, articles, headlines and opinions ‘proving’ their position.

The majority of Brexit threads on the Politics and Politics for Moderates sections are started by leavers, not remainers.

Once again, I will say that no-one on this Forum (that I am aware of) has had a change of heart, one way or the other.

We agree on that point though.

[Royal]

Au contraire Lloyd.

I absolutely agree with Hudswell’s post which firmly lays the blame for the poor state of the negotiations at the feet of the intransigent EU which has the sole aim of extracting money from us (with menaces) before entering into substantive talks.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with my belief that Theresa May is clearly unable to hold her bickering Ministers together and/or keep them muzzled, appearing to value a united Conservative Party more than a united nation.

[Poppy]

Dominic you say that the majority of threads on both Politics sections are started by Leavers. Are you sure about that? At a quick glance on one there are 5 started by Remainers,2 by Leavers and two I am not sure of( memory man and Geoffreys) and on the other it seems to be level - 5 for and 5 against.
Not that it matters either way IMHO

[Dominic]

Dominic you say that the majority of threads on both Politics sections are started by Leavers. Are you sure about that? At a quick glance on one there are 5 started by Remainers,2 by Leavers and two I am not sure of( memory man and Geoffreys) and on the other it seems to be level - 5 for and 5 against.
Not that it matters either way IMHO

I'm with you on the not mattering front Polly. I glanced at both forums and it looked like the leavers had it, but I'm happy to concede that the moderate section has more threads started by remainers. I did try and check properly but it gets a bit soul destroying, seeing the same arguments bounce to and fro on thread after thread. I long for the day when it is all over and we can talk about other political issues.

[Cogs123]

TM put her party before country by calling that car crash of a GE, then miraculously finding the nonexistent money tree in order to give the DUP a bribe to cling onto power.
The Government have, so far, been a shambolic embarrassment, a laughing stock, consisting of self serving individuals who seem to value their careers over the best interests of our country.

It is without doubt that we are divided, so I hardly think that replacing the current mob with a bunch of Brexiteers will improve the total lack of confidence the British public have in our current ‘ leadership ‘

I always believed that in a democracy, EVERYONE was entitled to representation/or be heard....or am I mistaken.

[Cogs123]

I agree Dominic, I too long for the day when it is all finally over...whatever the outcome.

[Jimgward]

I have hung my flag 0t the mast of remaining. I believe it is one of the worst decisions in UK history. I really do hope I’m wrong...

I also accept, that the decision was made and we will have to live with it, but I’m damned if I will be a silent partner to a car crash, if pressure can be exerted to ensure that we get the best possible result for all. By that, it may not suit the hard brexiteers, with no deal and a complete write-off, not the hard remainers, with everything on the surface as is/was. But if businesses find the deal an acceptable way to continue trade with our biggest treading partners,if we can entice skilled workers from the EU countries, if we can move relatively freely and not endure border chaos.... then great.

I believe that a democracy allows my protests and my support for more verbal and involved protest by elected representatives. My country (Scotland) voted strongly in favour of remain and I therefore expect it’s elected officials to pressurise on that agenda. That’s proper democracy.

Interesting, that leavers use the term “Remoaners” and such like, yet I am unaware of a derogatory term for someone in favour of Brexit. Strange that....

[Jimgward]

Really Hudswell? Sorry, but I have never, on here or elsewhere, seen those terms used. I have seen some Brexiteers being referred to as racists, those who admitted to it only being about immigrants. There were interviews on TV about some and many immigrants have suffered racist attack increases sense the bret vote.... so not a slander....

I have never seen as derogatory a determination of one camp as leave voters using the Remoaner term constantly - from people like yourself all the way up to senior politicians.

[Royal]

Really Hudswell? Sorry, but I have never, on here or elsewhere, seen those terms used. I have seen some Brexiteers being referred to as racists, those who admitted to it only being about immigrants. There were interviews on TV about some and many immigrants have suffered racist attack increases sense the bret vote.... so not a slander....

I have never seen as derogatory a determination of one camp as leave voters using the Remoaner term constantly - from people like yourself all the way up to senior politicians.

Jim,

The BBC are biased against Brexit. It’s that simple. However, their bias is far, far more subtle than just openly stating their position (clearly that would not be allowed for a publicly funded corporation).

When interviewing Brexiteers from the general public, they invariably interview people from the poorer, run down areas and the interviewee comes over (often justifiably) as racist.

This is not a true reflection of the leave camp.

Look also at the Andrew Marr Show or the Sunday Politics Show. Their guests who favour Remain outnumber those who favour Leave by a ratio of 3:1. This does not reflect the referendum result or current thinking. The BBC are trying to set the agenda rather than report it.

[Dominic]

Look at This Week, hosted by outspoken Brexit supporter, Andrew Neil, chairman of the group that publish The Spectator. That show is on the BBC too.

You failed to mention that.

[Royal]

Interesting, that leavers use the term “Remoaners” and such like, yet I am unaware of a derogatory term for someone in favour of Brexit. Strange that....

Really? You haven’t heard the term Brexshits being used? I have, though not on this Forum.

Remoaner is a term which seems to be quite apt as it is pretty descriptive of many (not all) who voted Remain but like the annoying song from Frozen just cannot ‘Let it go! let it go!’

Like Hudswell, I quite like the swashbuckling term ‘Brexiteer’

[Royal]

Look at This Week, hosted by outspoken Brexit supporter, Andrew Neil, chairman of the group that publish The Spectator. That show is on the BBC too.

You failed to mention that.

Err, probably because unlike the others I mentioned, I have never watched it!