Elgin marbles

[Devil]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-67551732

What is indisputable is that Lord Elgin was responsible for having had sculptures from the Parthenon in Athens removed and transported to Britain. They were exhibited in London in what is now called the British Museum, where they still are. The Greeks, with justification, consider them to have been stolen and want them back. The British Museum considers them as a good money-making work of art and wants to keep them.

One thing is certain: they are currently in far better condition since arriving at the museum; if they had remained in situ, pollution and weather would have taken their toll and they would have lost much of their artistic value.

If the UK returned them to Greece, they would be placed in a museum to protect them from the weather. Accurate reproductions would be placed back into the Parthenon. Similarly, accurate reproductions could be exhibited in the British Museum. It would seem that modern technology would make the reproductions literally indistinguishable from the originals, on condition that the marble came from the same source as the original sculptures.

That being the case, I see no reason why the Greeks can't have the originals, do you?

[WHL]

Can you imagine if the statue of lord Nelson was sitting in a musium in Athens would the UK government not want it back to be placed on the coloum in trafalgar square, Elgin bought them from the Ottomans who ruled Greece back then and if I'm correct he bought them to have on his estate, give them back to Greece where they rightfully belong and in return Greece can send.many more items for. The British musium to display

[Dominic]

Years ago I asked my Mum - who had a degree in Modern History - whether she thought the marbles should be returned. I was surprised at how against the idea she was. I can't remember her exact argument but it was along the lines of how badly they were being looked after in Greece before they were moved.

I am sure these days however they would be able to look after them in the correct fashion. But in all honesty, with 3D printing what it is these days, I don't know why entire collections aren't reproduced and shared around the world for everybody to see. I don't think the British Museum (or wherever they are stored) who be any worse for having facsimiles instead of the real thing. And let's face it, when they inevitably get covered in orange paint, they will be a lot easier to repair.

[Dominic]

Here is an interesting snippet from Twitter:

No, we did not steal them. They were removed by Lord Elgin under permit from the Ottoman authorities. They were then loaded and transported From Athens to London under further permit from the Ottomans.

Moreover, had they not been removed and kept safely in the British Museum they would almost certainly have shared the fate of the other 50% of the Parthenon marbles and been destroyed, mutilated or broken up for building material.

[Devil]

the other 50% of the Parthenon marbles and been destroyed, mutilated or broken up for building material.

I understood that the current state of the original marbles in situ is mainly a result of pollution from Athenian vehicles and chimneys. Chemically, marble is CaCO3, calcium carbonate, exactly the same as chalk and we all know how soft that is! If you want to be convinced, but a couple of marble chips in the bottom of a jam jar, fill it with water and add a good few drops of vinegar, then wait. A few weeks later you'd be hard put to find the marble which has dissolved.

[Firefly]

At present, it's illegal for the museum to return the marbles. An act of 1963 I think. It seems that neither the conservative government, nor a Labour government of the future, should that happen, is willing to change the law.

Does it matter anyway, to the majority of the British people? Most probably not.

[Chaddy]

If say you had an antique or similar in your home that had been handed down to you through generations,you know which country it had come originaly from but had been purchased legally at the time by an ancester,would you willingly give it back

[josef k]

Oh for goodness sake, they belong in the museum just down from the Parthenon, together with the other part of the marbles. They form no part of British history and most of the UK population have never seen them. If they were returned they would be at no risk of damage due to the high standards maintained in the museum. I've been there.

They were taken, with the agreement of the ottoman occupiers, at a time when Britain thought it was OK to plunder foreign lands. Times have changed, and it seems the majority of the British public agree they should be returned. British museums are full of plunder, including the remains of people's ancestors, and it is time this was addressed.

[Firefly]

Oh my, the flood gates would open.

'That's my mummy', takes on a whole new meaning

Just as a matter of interest, Josef, how would you address it, or think that it should be addressed?

[Chaddy]

Oh for goodness sake, they belong in the museum just down from the Parthenon, together with the other part of the marbles. They form no part of British history and most of the UK population have never seen them. If they were returned they would be at no risk of damage due to the high standards maintained in the museum. I've been there.

They were taken, with the agreement of the ottoman occupiers, at a time when Britain thought it was OK to plunder foreign lands. Times have changed, and it seems the majority of the British public agree they should be returned. British museums are full of plunder, including the remains of people's ancestors, and it is time this was addressed.

So if the marbles have to be returned so should the countless other antiques in homes throughout the country brought home by travellers,and soldiers from foreign lands.Just how much of the UK do we have to give away,where will it end.My grandfather brought home an ash tray when serving our once Great Britain during the first world war.Mmmmmm i,d better send it back

[Devil]

If they are sent back to Greece, does the UK lose its marbles?

[mark4007]

At present, it's illegal for the museum to return the marbles. An act of 1963 I think. It seems that neither the conservative government, nor a Labour government of the future, should that happen, is willing to change the law.

Does it matter anyway, to the majority of the British people? Most probably not.

Rishi is again conjouring up a manufactured cultural war here. Trying to paint KS as the bad guy.

The simple fact is no law needs to be changed to lend the marbles to Greece. The idea is that will happen soon.. it wont take any parliamentary time (as changing the law would) and it should get the marbles back to Greece sooner.

Now.. If only the UK could lend prime ministers somewhere else..

[mark4007]

Oh for goodness sake, they belong in the museum just down from the Parthenon, together with the other part of the marbles. They form no part of British history and most of the UK population have never seen them. If they were returned they would be at no risk of damage due to the high standards maintained in the museum. I've been there.

They were taken, with the agreement of the ottoman occupiers, at a time when Britain thought it was OK to plunder foreign lands. Times have changed, and it seems the majority of the British public agree they should be returned. British museums are full of plunder, including the remains of people's ancestors, and it is time this was addressed.

So if the marbles have to be returned so should the countless other antiques in homes throughout the country brought home by travellers,and soldiers from foreign lands.Just how much of the UK do we have to give away,where will it end.My grandfather brought home an ash tray when serving our once Great Britain during the first world war.Mmmmmm i,d better send it back

This "thin edge of the wedge" argument doesnt really hold water..

But, Yes.. items that were/are cullturally significant that were stollen, looted or even obtained where the collonial party had a very strong bargening position should be given back.

But lets forget about getting worked up about this principle and just start by pragmatically addressing items where one state or people feel particularly upset and would like their property back... I would hazzard a guess that the ash tray is a long way down th peckinh order..

[mark4007]

If say you had an antique or similar in your home that had been handed down to you through generations,you know which country it had come originaly from but had been purchased legally at the time by an ancester,would you willingly give it back

Yes..

[WHL]

[Firefly]

mark4007

Devil asked if Greece should have it's marbles back. I pointed out that as the UK law stands, we cannot return them permanently.

I agree that we could 'loan' them to Greece, but at the end of the day, if we return, whether on loan or not, everything that we hold in our museums, to their places of origin, not only would the museums be half empty, but it would cost the UK a small fortune. If the countries of origin, require the return of artifacts, then some agreement should be made that the 'return', should be financed by that country. Not a popular idea with some perhaps, but sensible as I see it.

The finance gained by those agreements, should then be used for charitable purposes.

Whether an ashtray is a long way down the pecking order or not, is immaterial, the principal remains the same.

[WHL]

mark4007

Devil asked if Greece should have it's marbles back. I pointed out that as the UK law stands, we cannot return them permanently.

I agree that we could 'loan' them to Greece, but at the end of the day, if we return, whether on loan or not, everything that we hold in our museums, to their places of origin, not only would the museums be half empty, but it would cost the UK a small fortune. If the countries of origin, require the return of artifacts, then some agreement should be made that the 'return', should be financed by that country. Not a popular idea with some perhaps, but sensible as I see it.

The finance gained by those agreements, should then be used for charitable purposes.

Whether an ashtray is a long way down the pecking order or not, is immaterial, the principal remains the same.

Who has said that the countries wanting the return of their heritage items will not pay for the whole shipping costs?, Museums will not go empty as Greece has stated they are prepared to send valuable statues etc to be exhibited on a regular basis.

[PolemIan]

We had a fantastic trip (again) to Athens earlier this year. Lord Elgin’s name features regularly on the explanatory notes on the Parthenon on the Acropolis and in the Acropolis Museum - the articles are written in a way that few would doubt the feelings of those in Greece. The Caryiads on the Erechtheion are all replicas, with the originals on display in the Museum. Pointedly there is no replica for the one now in the British Museum. The Acropolis Museum is stunning. Every piece is beautifully displayed and cared for. Watching the teams on the Acropolis working on restoration and preservation is mind blowing. The original argument that these few pieces in a the vast British Museum wouldn’t survive as well in Athens as in London carries no weight anymore in my opinion.

I’m no history buff but I can’t see any reason why these pieces shouldn’t be returned to where they came from.

As an aside, if you’re resident in Cyprus it’s an hour or so by air to Athens, if you haven’t been, it’s a fantastic place to visit.

Ian

[Firefly]

WHL

Has anyone asked if the costs would be met by countries requesting the return of artifacts? If not, we do not know, thus no one has said that they would or wouldn't, so your question is irrelevant. It was merely my suggestion.

That said, of course, anything that I write usually provokes some response or other from you, even if it's meaningless.

Greece may have stated that they exhibits on a regular basis, however, what about all the rest, Egypt for example.

[WHL]

WHL

Has anyone asked if the costs would be met by countries requesting the return of artifacts? If not, we do not know, thus no one has said that they would or wouldn't, so your question is irrelevant. It was merely my suggestion.

That said, of course, anything that I write usually provokes some response or other from you, even if it's meaningless.

Greece may have stated that they exhibits on a regular basis, however, what about all the rest, Egypt for example.

Meaningless ? Your argument about who picks up the bill for returning the marbles is daft, if the UK agreed to thier return, Greece would have a plane at Heathrow before the ink dried,
You asked what about Egypt, If Egypt or any other country wants items back, they can ask the UK and take it from there.