Paphos Life

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:16 pm**

How does political never work? The US has almost derstroyed the economy in Venezuela through embargoes. There are dozens of other examples.

Northern Ireland was never to be solved by military means, but by political.

In fact, I struggle to think of ANY recent military intervention that has benefited mankind.... Vietnam onwards is certainly the case, maybe even Korea, Aden, Egypt and much more.....

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:05 pm**

Hudswell wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:48 pm Jim, wake up...you have a comfortable life...Thankfully there are those willing to do what you have never had the guts to,do...put your life on the line...so people like you can enjoy yours..

What a pathetic statement!

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:25 pm**

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Theodore Roosevelt

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:38 pm**

Hudswell wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:12 pm
Dominic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:05 pm
Hudswell wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:48 pm Jim, wake up...you have a comfortable life...Thankfully there are those willing to do what you have never had the guts to,do...put your life on the line...so people like you can enjoy yours..
What a pathetic statement!
Come on Dominic, please give us the benefit of your wisdom...have you ever? Actually put your life on the line? because friends of mine have put their lives on the line indeed have given their lives in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Iraq, Afgnanistan, on exercise in Germany, Norway, Denmark, Turkey...on operations in Belize,,Sierra Leonne in places you will have never have heard of, in the belief they are defending,protecting,,their family,,their friends and you.and I will defend that belief..And the west are condemned when they do and condemned when they don't and the liberals will swing both ways.. How dare they...

So you are basically saying that the military is unaccountable and the people who command them never wrong.

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:56 pm**

Dominic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:38 pm
Hudswell wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:12 pm
Come on Dominic, please give us the benefit of your wisdom...have you ever? Actually put your life on the line? because friends of mine have put their lives on the line indeed have given their lives in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Iraq, Afgnanistan, on exercise in Germany, Norway, Denmark, Turkey...on operations in Belize,,Sierra Leonne in places you will have never have heard of, in the belief they are defending,protecting,,their family,,their friends and you.and I will defend that belief..And the west are condemned when they do and condemned when they don't and the liberals will swing both ways.. How dare they...
So you are basically saying that the military is unaccountable and the people who command them never wrong.

I must be a thick Brexiteer after all.

How on earth, do you reach that conclusion from what was actually said?

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:02 pm**

I have extracted this from the thread about the Rohingya Refugees, as it was obscuring that issue.

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:33 pm**

Hudswell wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:12 pm
Dominic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:05 pm
Hudswell wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:48 pm Jim, wake up...you have a comfortable life...Thankfully there are those willing to do what you have never had the guts to,do...put your life on the line...so people like you can enjoy yours..
What a pathetic statement!
Come on Dominic, please give us the benefit of your wisdom...have you ever? Actually put your life on the line? because friends of mine have put their lives on the line indeed have given their lives in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Iraq, Afgnanistan, on exercise in Germany, Norway, Denmark, Turkey...on operations in Belize,,Sierra Leonne in places you will have never have heard of, in the belief they are defending,protecting,,their family,,their friends and you.and I will defend that belief..And the west are condemned when they do and condemned when they don't and the liberals will swing both ways.. How dare they...

Leaving your insult aside initially - as it is nothing more than nonsense....

In terms of these countries you mention.... Did a military solution work? As to forces pesonnnel putting their lives on the line, to defend and protect family, friends and others.... I dont believe the majority of people join the forces with any notion of this. Most see it as something to do, not some glorious fight to protect. In fact, many of the fights since WWII haven’t protected anything, Many have been for political, financial or imperialistic reasons. On few occasions were ‘protections’ taking place. You have been brainwashed if you still believe otherwise.

My father was in the Army for 6 1/2 years in WW2 and this was pretty unavoidable after the shambles of WW1 and the resultant turmoil that blighted Europe thereafter. WW1 was fought as a land grab between imperial royalist regimes. Men were cast aside like cattle, cheaper than an artillery shell. Rembrance, quite rightly, was formed to commemorate millions who had died in vain. A war to end all wars..... but it happened again... and would again if the same type of political leaders were given the same control as before. Thankfully the world is moving on. Not quick enough for near a million in Iraq, hundreds of thousands on Libya and many other places where our interference has caused strife and nothing more. Unfortunately, we see remmebrance and the poppy being moved by government, from remembrance of the devastation of war, the crime of people dying, to a political manipulation supporting military views.

War is about money for the attack companies (I use that word correctly, rather than defence) and the sooner peace is the first and last resort, the better.

Now back to your insult. Guts to join the army as a squaddie? Give me a break. Do army recruiters attend schools to find the young lads with the most guts, or those with little else of a career path, no qualifications and easy picks? I’d be the last to say that fighting in a war does not take guts, but not fighting isn’t a lack of them. So in the politest way, think of three words....

As to them fighting in my name, sorry, but nobody represented me in Iraq, Libya and many other places. If we were an honourable country, really interested in world peace, betterment and stopping destruction of peoples, we would be defending poor souls in Maynamar, West Africa and many other places where we aren’t there for financial gain or power but more altruistic reasons.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:37 am**

Jimgward

Pretty predictable comments from you - I am sure your political leader will be proud of you.

My father, like yours, served throughout the whole of WW2 but not in Europe - the far east and within six months of his return home he was dead. My late husband, a fellow Scot like yourself, spent 27 years as a volunteer regular soldier (12 years in the reserve thereafter) and was not recruited at his school - he had left and went on to University. He did not join the forces because he saw it as "something to do" but because he wished to. He saw service in most of the countries you previously listed in addition to Korea, Malaysia and Suez. I take exception to your continued unwarranted criticism of the Armed Forces and ask you do you seriously believe that had there been no intervention in Korea for instance the North would have kept themselves to the North? I would suggest that you have the freedom to express yourself as you do because of the sacrifices made by members of the Armed forces and their civilian counterparts who made and continue to make vital contributions to our well being and that of others. In some of the other countries you list you would either be executed or imprisoned for expressing the views that you do. We are certainly not perfect but it is a thousand times better than many other parts of the world. Jim you do not have a lien on caring or a desire for world peace but in many parts of the world there is no desire for that as witnessed by the dreadful deeds perpetuated on their own people.

When I was in the U.K this summer I witnessed a mother pushing her son to the hospital in a wheel chair who had no legs when two drunken teenagers jeered and commented "you should'nt have joined the Army should you" God forbid that these specimens of humanity could have gone to the lady's assistance and pushed the chair for her.

In another post you asked if I had seen a programme on Chanel 4 re discrimination of a Muslim lady - yes I did but again may I point out I personally am not a racist - I dont judge people by the colour of their skin, religious or otherwise persuasion or nationality. For 4 years I had a Muslim medical student living in my home in London (Tunisian) who now qualified is back home working in a hospital. I learned quite a lot about their way of life and to this day I get invitations to family events such as weddings etc and am treated as one of them. I have a copy of the Koran in my bedside drawer along with my Bible and have read the Koran from cover to cover at least four times. That said it is not a faith I would particularly embrace anymore than the Jewish faith but I respect their views.

Your politics are your choice I just happen to believe you are misguided as doubtless you think I and others like me are. Please though leave the armed forces alone and let them do their job with some respect from the rest of us.

Rita

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:39 am**

I cannot speak for Jimgward, Rita, but I have tremendous respect for the military. My Dad used to be a Wing Commander before he retired.

But just because somebody has never fought, does not mean that they cannot question the motives behind the military'ss usage and it's effectiveness.

Besides, given that the military is trained, quite rightly, to follow orders, don't the rest of us owe them a duty to ensure that the people giving the orders are doing so for the right reasons?

I agree with Hudswell on one thing though. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. When the troups aren't sent in, people say "Why didn't we send in the troups?". When the troups are sent in people say "Why did we send in the troups? It isn't our war".

To fight in a war must require tremendous courage and sacrifice, it is up to the rest of us to respect that and try and ensure it is not put to waste.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:13 am**

I won’t reply to Rita as she called me a racist many weeks ago and didnt justify it,.... she seems, unprovoked, to try to say she isn’t a racist, hmm....

My views on the forces are because I have seen som much devastation caused by wars, most unjustified. I ask for examples of a recent just conflict, where the UK HAD to be involved and merited being involved.

Hudswell, I am loath to reply to you anymore. A keyboard warrior, I’d bet you wouldn’t say things to my face.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:40 am**

When I was on active service and in some minor danger, I was trained to blindly do what I was told. There was no question of questioning orders. OTOH, as an A2 tradesman under non-active service, I was able to express my opinion on technical matters and, yes, in your mob.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:13 pm**

Dominic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:39 am I agree with Hudswell on one thing though. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. When the troups aren't sent in, people say "Why didn't we send in the troups?". When the troups are sent in people say "Why did we send in the troups? It isn't our war".
To fight in a war must require tremendous courage and sacrifice, it is up to the rest of us to respect that and try and ensure it is not put to waste.

Personally I would never blame the UK military for any decision to send in troops as this usually follows a political decision. So there lies the responsibility....the politicians.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:45 pm**

Jimgward wrote

" I wont reply to Rita as she called me a racist many weeks ago and didn't justify it... she seems, unprovoked, to try to say she isn't a racist hmm..." In reply I say I am not but you go ahead Jim call me a liar why not?

On October 23rd under the Politics heading entitled "Turning the Tide: Too hot for moderates" you wrote, inter alia, "being of immigrant stock...particularly Commonwealth immigrants who in many cases were displaced or persecuted within their own countries, often by Britain and the armed forces...I asked you to leave the armed forces out of it and did indeed suggest to keep doing so suggested you yourself were being racist. The last two paragraphs of that post were addressed to Dominic not you but you decided to reply to those comments. In addition you continue to criticise the armed forces without, if you will permit me to say so, any justification. You asked "how dare I" and for an apology - afraid I see no reason to accede to your request. You are using a public forum to vent your spleen but object to others who just might see it differently to you and, in my case, for the reasons given and I do not resile from my view.

I did on the 27th October under the same heading laughingly reply to your reference to me and two others in your quote from Macbeth and added a PS to the effect "I would return to our earlier subject matter later as I had to go out now". Unfortunately I had not been able to do so due to making an urgent trip to the UK but you now have it and I would once more appeal to you to leave the forces personnel out of your political comments and should you have any evidence of ill treatment by them to civilian populations or service personnel wherever they are serving report such conduct to the relevant authorities. I can guarantee such complaints will be investigated.

Dominic

I concur with all you say in your above post and confirm that I have never nor will I ever suggest that people who did not serve in the forces had no right to question why our country involves itself in conflicts which, prima facie, have nothing to do with us. As you say they are dammed if they do and dammed if they dont but it is not the military personnel per se who just engage themselves in conflicts for fun.

You raised another point under the Turning the Tide regarding the immigration topic i.e. "I never understood why Britain didn't enforce the rules the same way as everybody else did.....UK now suffering the consequences". Actually we used to do so - records were kept by the immigration service of everyone who entered the country and the date when they were supposed to leave if not granted permanent status. In 1997 Mr Blair gave instructions that these records were no longer to be kept and later David Blunkett (now Lord Blunkett), who was Home Secretary admitted this was so on the basis that the people in question were more likely to vote Labour. In other words we had uncontrolled immigration. That is why no-one is aware of the actual numbers who have entered the country. I do believe that the record keeping is now back in place - people from the EU having at present freedom of movement within Europe.

Rita

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:01 am**

What nonsense.... how can I be racist, as a UK citizen, when I express views that at times, the armed forces have persecuted citizens....?

You need to read a description of a racist....

racist
ˈreɪsɪst/Submit
noun
1.
a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
"I had a fear of being called a racist"
synonyms: racial bigot, racialist, xenophobe, chauvinist; More
adjective
1.
showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another.
"we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at a newsagents"

So, you accused me of a terrible fact, yet cannot justify it, so either do the ladylike thing, apologise, withdraw or leave yourself open to an accusation of discrimination..... I reserve the right, in as political forum, to condemn practices of any party, government or politician, or delivery mechanism of political decision, that I consider wrong. If that happens to be your precious armed forces, who I applaud for many humanitarian efforts, many efforts at peacekeeping and many courageous acts of unselfish efforts to make the world genuinely better - such as mine-clearance in minefields of Africa - then I will. No regime, politically elected representative or government department is beyond criticism.

I use the word precious, as that defines something beyond reproach. The UK armed forces in history and in recent times, are certainly not beyond reproach.

Oh, last thing, you don’t know “my political leader” - or your trawling has been incomplete....

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:52 pm**

Jimgward wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:33 pm
Hudswell wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:12 pm
Dominic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:05 pm

What a pathetic statement!
Come on Dominic, please give us the benefit of your wisdom...have you ever? Actually put your life on the line? because friends of mine have put their lives on the line indeed have given their lives in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Iraq, Afgnanistan, on exercise in Germany, Norway, Denmark, Turkey...on operations in Belize,,Sierra Leonne in places you will have never have heard of, in the belief they are defending,protecting,,their family,,their friends and you.and I will defend that belief..And the west are condemned when they do and condemned when they don't and the liberals will swing both ways.. How dare they...
Leaving your insult aside initially - as it is nothing more than nonsense....

In terms of these countries you mention.... Did a military solution work? As to forces pesonnnel putting their lives on the line, to defend and protect family, friends and others.... I dont believe the majority of people join the forces with any notion of this. Most see it as something to do, not some glorious fight to protect. In fact, many of the fights since WWII haven’t protected anything, Many have been for political, financial or imperialistic reasons. On few occasions were ‘protections’ taking place. You have been brainwashed if you still believe otherwise.

My father was in the Army for 6 1/2 years in WW2 and this was pretty unavoidable after the shambles of WW1 and the resultant turmoil that blighted Europe thereafter. WW1 was fought as a land grab between imperial royalist regimes. Men were cast aside like cattle, cheaper than an artillery shell. Rembrance, quite rightly, was formed to commemorate millions who had died in vain. A war to end all wars..... but it happened again... and would again if the same type of political leaders were given the same control as before. Thankfully the world is moving on. Not quick enough for near a million in Iraq, hundreds of thousands on Libya and many other places where our interference has caused strife and nothing more. Unfortunately, we see remmebrance and the poppy being moved by government, from remembrance of the devastation of war, the crime of people dying, to a political manipulation supporting military views.

War is about money for the attack companies (I use that word correctly, rather than defence) and the sooner peace is the first and last resort, the better.

Now back to your insult. Guts to join the army as a squaddie? Give me a break. Do army recruiters attend schools to find the young lads with the most guts, or those with little else of a career path, no qualifications and easy picks? I’d be the last to say that fighting in a war does not take guts, but not fighting isn’t a lack of them. So in the politest way, think of three words....

As to them fighting in my name, sorry, but nobody represented me in Iraq, Libya and many other places. If we were an honourable country, really interested in world peace, betterment and stopping destruction of peoples, we would be defending poor souls in Maynamar, West Africa and many other places where we aren’t there for financial gain or power but more altruistic reasons.

Excellent post, as for the usual forelock tuggers, give it up mate, you cant argue with people who have been Brainwashed to accept what ever Liz and co tell them.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:54 pm**

Jimgward

This is the first time you have actually made me laugh. Hudswell wouldn't say things to your face ? I wouldn't bet on it

Jackie

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:06 pm**

Firefly wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:54 pm Jimgward

This is the first time you have actually made me laugh. Hudswell wouldn't say things to your face ? I wouldn't bet on it

Jackie

Really, you know even less about me....

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:13 pm**

Meaning what exactly ?

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:03 pm**

So, don't bet when you don't know the form of the horses in the race

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:49 pm**

Some things are best ignored Firefly.

Paphos Life

Political vs Military Solutions.

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