Paphos Life

Under a different thread the topic of racism and xenophobia in general raised some interesting comments.
It is indeed a fascinating area for active discussion.
One question - what is the difference between racism and xenophobia, ... and a whole myriad of other terms.
I did a google search, and the first article I opened was this - amazingly enough, written by a German lady.
What I perceived as anti-German comments sparked some of the debate on the other thread - which was clearly beginning to go seriously off topic.
Hence this new thread.

So a first posting, which I encourage people to read. It is relatively short. The German lady happens to be a university professor in the UK.
I can't see a date on the article, but I would think from the middle of last year.

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Abused in the street, invited to a Brexit BBQ: the limbo of being German in the UK
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/03/0 ... in-the-uk/

...What I was not prepared for was what happened on Saturday after the referendum. There I was, doing some shopping in Newcastle city centre – only to walk straight into National Front members holding a banner that read ‘Stop immigration, start repatriation’. That banner was not new, but the group behind it was clearly seizing the moment. Energised by the Leave result, they shouted that everyone from the EU would be kicked out. Their hate-filled chants are still stuck in my head....

And it is largely hostile. With lies and xenophobia the central hallmarks of the Leave campaign, it is hardly surprising that the number of hate crimes went up in the aftermath of the vote. There are warnings already that another spike is expected after the triggering of Article 50. A few months ago I walked down the street talking to my mother on the phone. I spoke German. I was told to ‘f- off back to your country’ by a bystander. Never before 2016, never once, has any such thing happened. But I probably imagined that – or so many Leave supporters gladly tell me all the time....

What all this rhetoric is telling me is that I do not belong here. I am foreign, and now frequently described as a foreigner. This, too, is something that never happened before 2016; not to me, anyway. From newspaper front pages to Lord Tebbit’s comments in the recent discussion in the House of Lords, the casting of EU nationals as foreigners who do not belong is now a daily occurrence....

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Remember, this is not written by some journalist. This is a lady who happens to be German, living in the UK, who wrote a blog.

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Some other articles -
Racist hate crime is so out of control that even white British people are being attacked
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 60836.html

Racist hate crime is so out of control that even white British people are being attacked
Pointing out the rise in hate crimes post-Brexit is not an attempt to undermine the democratic will of the British people. We must stand firmly against xenophobia and hatred, regardless of our opinions on the EU referendum

“Go back to where you came from, we don’t want you here.” Those were the words thrown at 23-year-old Adrienne Kosowski, a first year junior doctor, on his way to work a week after the EU referendum. “I’ve always considered myself British, [but] I found myself questioning my identity after hearing those words,” he tells me.

Rob Waller, a company director on a business trip in Hampshire tells me how he wife was verbally attacked on the street. “Days after the [EU referendum] vote, a group of strangers racially abused my wife. Even though she’s white and British, she has gypsy heritage. The last time she was racially abused was in the 1980s during her school years.”...

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This is more radical -

AFTER BREXIT: RECKONING WITH BRITAIN’S RACISM AND XENOPHOBIA
https://www.greeneuropeanjournal.eu/aft ... enophobia/

...In a coming recession, with intensified inequality, rising poverty and stalled social mobility, under a Tory government which has no stakes in egalitarian social policies, racism and xenophobia, right-wing populism, ultranationalist ideologies, and even fascism will find a fertile soil. The horrifying racist and xenophobic attacks of the last week are haunted by the “rivers of blood” racism of yesteryears. ...

The long and brutal history of British colonialism and empire lies at the heart of so much British insularity and racism. The deep roots of this racism will likely influence the politics of tomorrow, as it has already done that of today. To counter such a bleak future, mass mobilisation is necessary – and any form of progressive mass mobilisation has to recognise that class politics are always articulated through a politics of race. Reckoning with Britain’s racism and xenophobia across time, place, parties and social classes is the necessary first step in such mobilisation...

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UK: Hate crime 'at record levels' after Brexit vote
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/u ... 14863.html

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Xenophobia
http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-and ... enophobia/
...Xenophobia and racism often overlap, but are distinct phenomena. Whereas racism usually entails distinction based on physical characteristic differences, such as skin colour, hair type, facial features, etc, xenophobia implies behaviour based on the idea that the other is foreign to or originates from outside the community or nation.4

Because differences in physical characteristics are often taken to distinguish the 'other' from the common community, it is often difficult to differentiate between racism and xenophobia as motivations for behaviour. At the same time, expression of xenophobia may occur against people of identical physical characteristics when such people arrive, return or migrate to States or areas where occupants consider them outsiders....

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Difference Between Xenophobia and Racism
http://www.differencebetween.net/langua ... nd-racism/
Sometimes people think that xenophobia and racism are similar and their usage can be interchanged. However, this is not the case as the two words are very different. Xenophobia refers to dislike or fearing unknown or something that is different from you. Racism on the other hand relates that any race determines the traits of human and their capacity making them more superior than the any other race. Across the world there are racial discriminations present between people belonging to different groups. They are discriminated against based on their cultural or ethnic beliefs.

Xenophobia is not only aversion to a person but it is a fear or dislike of other cultures and beliefs. Even though some people feel that is a certain ‘target’ group that is not really accepted by the society; in reality it is the phobic who holds such reservations and beliefs. It may be possible that the phobic person knows that he or she is averse to the target group, they may not accept the fact that they are actually afraid or it is their fear. A xenophobic person has to only think of one thing ‘“ that the target group is in fact foreigners. This argument depicts the fact that xenophobia and racism are totally different because a person belonging to a different race may have the same nationality. So while xenophobia comprises of multiple aspects, racism is based only on one aspect....

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Thank goodness for the Scroll wheel on a mouse

Trev..

Then let's start by agreeing. Racism and Xenophobia are completely different things. The problem is that the reasonable uses of these words are completely ignored when those who would wish the UK to remain in the EU or continue mass immigration at the current suicidal levels wish to use them either as an argument terminator, or an assumption that, as their argument is the more moral one [by their lights at least], it is unassailable on that basis.

A phobia, for example is by definition an irrational fear. It is a mental defect of someone unable to rationalise a fear against the actual risk that a situation represents. A psychiatric condition. To accuse someone of being xenophobic is to question their mental faculties. It is therefore beholden to you to explain why peoples concerns fall into the trap of irrationality if you wish to brand them as such. It appears I am not allowed, for example, to hold the position that attracting and accepting skilled workers from within [and indeed from outside] the EU is a perfectly rational thing to do, but if the price of doing that is that we must unconditionally accept a wave of unemployed [and largely unemployable] immigrants in it is too high. The UK has always managed to attract skilled workers from the US, Russia, China, India, Australia, in fact all the Commonwealth countries, without having to accept a proportion of their unemployed in the bargain, why should we have to for EU countries? In what way is it irrational to be concerned about the effect of mass immigration on UK infrastructure and public services, or indeed on the basic British way of life when we say to our youngsters 'OK there are some unpleasant jobs that need to be done but don't worry, you just sit there an collect your dole check, whilst we import some foreigners who don't think doing this sort of job is beneath their dignity' One strawberry packing plant recently reported in the press that in the five years they have been in operation they had only had one English applicant for a position, and they lasted but one day before quitting. So it seems to me that, if you are OK with that then either the fruit packing plant must have made to poor decision to locate its facilities in the one area of the UK with zero unemployment, or you are quite happy with the concept with English people refusing to do English jobs because they are beneath their dignity, but it's OK to import foreigners [whose dignity is clearly not so important] to do them whilst paying the English to spend the day on the sofa dignity mercifully intact, preserved by a benevolent state [and I'm the xenophobe, right?]

This condition is not alone as a mental illness of course, there is also the perhaps more egregious disease of Islamophobia, the irrational and completely unfounded fear that pandering to an ideology morally unreformed since the Iron Age is having a detrimental effect on UK society. "We will probably never truly know" quoth a senior member of the Church of England after the recent Manchester and London 'incidents' "what motivated these poor men to destroy themselves and others in such a terrible way [despite them leaving videos detailing their motivations in no uncertain terms]. Well you know what, I'm just Islamophobic enough to take a guess.

As for racism, again you are quite right it is simply the ascribing positive or negative attributes to an individual purely the basis of their race alone.

If then you are going to accuse someone of being a racist [not only a morally repugnant position with regard to negative attributes, but currently in the main an illegal one in the UK] then you should at least be sure of your ground before you cast such aspersions. Given the definition we have agreed on, in what way is a picture of the reality of the immigrant stream across Europe [at the unilateral request of the Germans you may recall, ignoring the desires of their EU 'partners'] along with the legend 'Breaking Point' [a description which the en route countries heartily agreed with] is racist.

Before considering your answer I beg you to consider that, being neither a Remainer nor a proponent of mass migration, I have not been gifted with these groups apparent ability to read minds, and therefore will have to stick to the actual facts and not be able to join you in any excursions into what Farage really meant, or what he was actually thinking despite what he said.

Do racists and xenophobes exist in the UK [and pretty much every other country in the world], yes, of course. But just ascribing these qualities to someone who doesn't completely agree with you is dishonest and counterproductive. "Everyone who disagrees with me is a de facto racist" and "Everyone I don't like is literally Hitler", a mewling increasing heard from the left, is an argument more suited to the playground than rational adult discourse, and would you might have though been repudiated in the course of debate at any level of political sophistication.

But not so, apparently

I find any form or racism not only reprehensible but ultimately counterproductive, and if you can show me a real example of this [especially a systemic one] then I will happily join you on the barricades to oppose it.

But if the people of the Left think I'm going to quietly join the racists and xenophobes on the naughty step, just to save them the trouble of formulating a coherent argument to support their suicidal views on immigration and EU federal socialism, then they really do need to think again

A superb post. Thank you Pete G.

Pete G there are times when intellect astounds me. This is one of them, thanks.

And just to clarify, I'm speaking only of your intellect, not the verbosity of the painful O'Su..... or HIC, if intellect could ever be applied to their posts. Trev and Allan, I'm with you two.

Happy in Cyprus wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:10 am Whether it be termed xenophobia or racism, I believe it was a principal component of the majority decision to vote for Brexit in the referendum. On the TV news the other day a guy being interviewed was not embarrassed to admit that he voted for Brexit "to get all the foreigners out". It was very evident he was not referring to Europeans (who have every right to be in the UK in just the same way as us Brits have a right to live and work in Cyprus), but rather to all nationalities. A lady interviewed yesterday was adamant that all foreigners should be 'sent home'. The interviewer clarified "all foreigners?" She said, "Yes, all foreigners", conveniently forgetting that a good many MPs are foreigners'; tens of thousands of doctors, nurses and other health professionals are foreigners...and so on. What would the UK do without all these skilled - and unskilled - people?

It is largely thanks to prejudiced nerds like these that the UK finds itself in the pathetic mess it is now in. I have always maintained that half the people who voted in the referendum didn't really know what they were voting for...and like it or not, that remains my view. Prejudice and dislike of Johnny foreigner were what did it in the referendum - even if the country couldn't now exist without Johnny foreigner. In just the same way, the USA can't exist without the cheap unskilled labour provided by the Hispanics, yet most Americans would love to send Mexicans home...they clearly haven't thought it through!

And before anyone says it was also to take the country's sovereignty back and get away from EU laws and regulations, let's not forget that all the current EU regs are about to be enshrined in English law anyway. Furthermore, if the UK wishes to trade with the EU in future, it is going to have to comply with most EU rules and regs.

But I digress

I completely agree with everything said there. Spot on.

I would also add another comment.

Pre referendum interview with some "nice" people up nesr Liverpool. A lady said she wanted all the Poles out. Interviewer asked how many Poles there were in her town. "None that I know of" she said. Clearly a misunderstood individual.

I also believe that when people say "foreigner" they actually mean "asian" but are afraid to say the word. However, we have always had control of our borders for outside the EU so that is not going to change.

IMHO, Xenophobia also means fear of change. And change is exactly what we voted for.

Xenophobia is fear of strangers.
Metathesiophobia is fear of change.
Tropophobia is a fear of change, but more connected with fear of re-location.
so a couple more phobias to attach to people you don't agree with!

Happy in Cyprus wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:10 am Whether it be termed xenophobia or racism, I believe it was a principal component of the majority decision to vote for Brexit in the referendum. On the TV news the other day a guy being interviewed was not embarrassed to admit that he voted for Brexit "to get all the foreigners out".
And before anyone says it was also to take the country's sovereignty back and get away from EU laws and regulations, let's not forget that all the current EU regs are about to be enshrined in English law anyway. Furthermore, if the UK wishes to trade with the EU in future, it is going to have to comply with most EU rules and regs.
But I digress

I think you might find that it was the fact that some foreigners are treated better than UK citizens that has caused a lot of the anger.

Of course HiC has only given half the story when talking about current regulations being enshrined in UK law. Yes, this will happen under the 'Great Repeal Bill' but then those bits that are not liked will be repealed.

Finally if exporters are already trading with mainland EU then they are already having to abide by EU rules and regulations, so no great hardship there. If UK exports to USA then whatever is exported there has to abide by their regulations.

Once more HiC is making something out of nothing.......no surprise there then.

Happy in Cyprus wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:10 am

And before anyone says it was also to take the country's sovereignty back and get away from EU laws and regulations, let's not forget that all the current EU regs are about to be enshrined in English law anyway. Furthermore, if the UK wishes to trade with the EU in future, it is going to have to comply with most EU rules and regs.

But I digress

Happy to digress with you then.

It is certainly true that EU regs are to be enshrined in UK law. This is so they can be stripped out in a controlled manner over time in the way the English legal system had worked well before deferring legal supremacy to the CJEU, rather than leaving a massive lacuna where EU law used to be, and filling it with hastily written law. This actually makes sense to me, I'd love to know what your preferred regime would be.

Of course UK firms wishing to trade with the EU will have to obey EU rules, however this is exactly the same for any nation/trading block a UK firm trades with, American import restrictions must be obeyed by firms wishing to export to the US, for example. There are however two key differences that I don't think your point quite covers

a) Although the UK will still have to comply with EU regulations, these will be the regulations controlling trade with Non-EU countries which are, on the whole much less draconian than intra-EU regulations

b) when trading with the US [for example] UK firms currently have to obey US trade restrictions, but they are forced, by the Customs Union, to accept constraints over and above these from EU regulations, often frame in the form of very punitive tariffs and 'licencing' These will, of course, disappear after Brexit

William Morris wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:14 pm

I also believe that when people say "foreigner" they actually mean "asian" but are afraid to say the word. However, we have always had control of our borders for outside the EU so that is not going to change.

This mindreading thing sounds like a really useful trick, someone is going to have to show me how it's done.

You're quite right about the control of our borders of course, well except for

The EU demanding the UK accept an extra 250,000 refugees with a fine of 250,000 euros per day for each one refused

EU ruling 67/2017 which overrules member states restrictions on the granting of, and permission to withdraw work permits from Non-EU nationals and grants the power to itself

European restrictions on the forced repatriation of criminals by member states

The supreme court overruling government policy [citing EU precedent] on forcing rejected asylum seekers/migrants to appeal from their country of origin

but these are, of course, details, hardly worth mentioning really

Pete G

Well said.

Apologies for intruding on your forum with my meagre opinion.

It certainly will never happen again.

William Morris wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:01 pm Apologies for intruding on your forum with my meagre opinion.

It certainly will never happen again.

I put my opinions up on here assuming people are going to pick holes in them, where's the fun or learning otherwise?

Don't give up so easily

Your namesake would be turning in his grave

If I can cut to the chase for a moment, people need to recall that the UK had a referendum on continued membership of the EU. The vote was to leave, as we know. However, the driver for the majority of those who voted to leave was that leaving would lead to the foreigners being forced to leave. You may recall the almost daily attacks on eastern Europeans that followed the vote. This in addition to the already existing attacks on Muslims and Mosques, Jews and Synagogues of course. This expulsion idea was encouraged by Farage and his ilk, supported by the media.
Some of you will challenge my view on what motivated the leave voters, but I tend to sit in a number of bars here and I listen to what UK people are saying, and 99% of that is anti-foreigner.
So racism is still alive and well in the UK. I agree it is different from Xenophobia, which is fear of foreigners, but is a result of it.

Hi Joseph,

Not quite sure what bars you frequent, but in my area of North Norfolk I am not certain they voted to leave on that basis. In defence of Farage, he did not encourage expulsion, nor did the media. Some of the "leavers" may have been anti-foreigner, but I do not think that was the main motivation.The UK has many Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, Seiks, Buddists, no religion, and of course many types of Christians for many hundereds of years with only a few issues, the last civil war was a few hundred years ago, but we have a parliament now that is supposed to avoid this.

Digby

My recollection of the aftermath of the Brexit vote was that most forces [after a FOI request from the good old Grauniad I believe] admitted that the spike in hate crimes existed only in the febrile imaginations of left wing journalists, and those few that had seen a spike admitted [rather shamefacedly I seem to recall on the part of the Met Spokesman] they were as a result of certain members of the community reporting the 'Breaking Point' poster as a hate crime which the Met said would probably not result in a prosecution [presumably because they stood about as much chance of flying as I do]

As to the daily attacks on Eastern Europeans, I must have missed the reports on those. I must say as far as I'm aware where I'm from relations in that particular bit of the UK with Eastern Europeans is very cordial, with the possibility of the Roma of course, whose difficulties predate Brexit by quite a long time.

Help me out, please.

I have to confess to being forum nieve when it comes to politics.

I am not being agressive or antagonist but asking a serious question.

What is a foreigner?

Let me give some examples.

A french engineer employed by a french company working in Britain to set up a new process plant.
A Polish man recruited by an English company to work in a car plant.
A Malaysian lady working in a care home.
A Syrian refugee claiming asylum to escape the conflict.
A Somalian who travelled to Dover inside a container.
My neighbour who's father was a Polish spitfire pilot in 1941 and settled here after the war.
My other neighbour who's grandfather came from Ireland to help build the roads.

Are any or all of these people classed as foreigners when we are discussing the reasons for voting leave in the referendum?

I ask because I firmly believe that there is a nasty undercurrent of opinion when talking about "the foreigners ".

josef k wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:00 pm If I can cut to the chase for a moment, people need to recall that the UK had a referendum on continued membership of the EU. The vote was to leave, as we know. However, the driver for the majority of those who voted to leave was that leaving would lead to the foreigners being forced to leave. You may recall the almost daily attacks on eastern Europeans that followed the vote. This in addition to the already existing attacks on Muslims and Mosques, Jews and Synagogues of course. This expulsion idea was encouraged by Farage and his ilk, supported by the media.
Some of you will challenge my view on what motivated the leave voters, but I tend to sit in a number of bars here and I listen to what UK people are saying, and 99% of that is anti-foreigner.
So racism is still alive and well in the UK. I agree it is different from Xenophobia, which is fear of foreigners, but is a result of it.

I voted leave because in my stupid youth I was fed a load of sh** by liars who had a hidden agenda,and subsequently voted to join a European Economic Community, dealing in free trade between member states. I have watched the insidious growth of the EEC into the EU that we all know and love or despise today. I have no problem with any EU national living and working in the UK, as long as they pay their way. I despise the likes of Juncker and Merkel who feel they can cajole and bully countries, and especially Merkel with her theft of people's money from Cyprus banks back in 2013 or whenever it was. There is racism in the UK, of course there is. I never was a racist, but I despise Muslim hate preachers and the filth and bile they spout with no worries about arrest and also those who think that it is perfectly alright so long as it goes only one way, (you know rabid left winger types who are under the illusion they are PM and stuff) but I could not care a jot on colour or race so long as that person is working and paying their way and living by the laws of my country.

William Morris wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:02 pm Help me out, please.

I have to confess to being forum nieve when it comes to politics.

I am not being agressive or antagonist but asking a serious question.

What is a foreigner?

Let me give some examples.

A french engineer employed by a french company working in Britain to set up a new process plant.
A Polish man recruited by an English company to work in a car plant.
A Malaysian lady working in a care home.
A Syrian refugee claiming asylum to escape the conflict.
A Somalian who travelled to Dover inside a container.
My neighbour who's father was a Polish spitfire pilot in 1941 and settled here after the war.
My other neighbour who's grandfather came from Ireland to help build the roads.

Are any or all of these people classed as foreigners when we are discussing the reasons for voting leave in the referendum?

I ask because I firmly believe that there is a nasty undercurrent of opinion when talking about "the foreigners ".

I would say as a rule of thumb that if you are in a country you were not born in, then you are a foreigner, unless you legally change your nationality.

There will be exceptions to this rule. But in my view, it is as simple as that.

But it is just a label. Judge people by their actions, that's my motto. Your neighbour's father probably considered himself to be Polish, not British. So what?

Agree.

I've lived here in Cyprus for 11 years, but I don't consider myself to be Cypriot. I am, and always will be British/English.

However, I spend my money here, I pay my village dues, I pay my taxes, I buy my car, clothes, food, ekectricuty, gas etc etc here. The majority of the pensions I draw after working all my life are spent here in Cyprus. I'm no drain whatsoever on the Cypriot government or people.

For me, this is the whole point about 'foreigners', however you choose to define that word. Whatever country they choose to live then I feel they must support themselves and not be a drain on the country in which they have chosen to reside.

Unfortunately, due to misinformed EU policies there are far far too many immigrants settling in EU countries without the means to support themselves and at the same time availing themselves of the very generous benefits in the countries where they choose to settle. Understandably, in my opinion, this inflames the indegenous population, which in turn then increases racial intolerance. This then inciting the use of 'foreigner' comments.

It's inconceivable that the likes of Merkel could not see the consequences of their 'open door' policies regarding immigration.

Yet another case of the ideology overriding the practicalities. Either Merkel or one of her underlings needs to get a grip on her practices, clearly she has no control whatsoever, immersed as she is in her own 'eminence'