Paphos Life

Now that winter is approaching, I seek advice about heating the house, which we have recently had insulation installed on the outside walls. We have a gas boiler to provide heating water with radiators in all rooms, including bathrooms. We also have aircon's in all rooms, except bathrooms. The house is two-storey with the bottom floor mainly a very large L-shaped living room with radiators and aircon's in both legs of the L. All the radiators on the ground floor are on a single hot water circuit. Upstairs, we have three bedrooms and two bathrooms on a separate single hot water circuit. The house is at 300 m altitude.

Being handicapped, what we would like is a comfortable 23° C in the living room in the evenings, but perhaps a little less during the day. The rub comes upstairs, where we would like as much as 25° C between 07:00 and 09:00 for the showers and 23° C between 22:00 and 24:00 while we go to bed but would be happy if the temperature dropped to, say, 19° or 20° C during the night. During the day, between 09:00 and 22:00, we would not need any specific heating.

Can any genius suggest how we go about this to take the best advantage from the insulation we installed?

As I know from the past, it is very difficult to give you any advise.... however I will try it

In recent posts you mentioned that you will have very soon a photovoltaic system ready and running.

Depending how large it is, I would not run the gas burner anymore and instead installing a air-to-water heat pump which only consumes electricity which your own PV system will provide.

It is not only because I don't like gas for security reasons, it is mainly for our environment and CO2 emissions in my opinion. In our Cyprus climate, heat pumps run very economic as we don't have low temperatures in winter, even at night. Different situation p.e. in Germany with their cold winter, however everybody there is desperate to get a heat pump installed, instead of gas central heating. At the moment with the shortage of gas there, together with extreme high gas prices due to the war in Ukraine, heat pumps are out of stock everywhere. There is also no permit from the Gov. within the next 2 yours for gas/diesel central heating systems anymore...

Max

When your pv system comes online you will find it very economical to use your aircon for heating. As you know, for 1kw of electric, and you get at least 3kw of heat. You have not had the advantage of storing kwh yet under the eac net metering scheme, but we have over 4000kwh stored which we will be able to use during the winter to heat our house and pool. Last winter, which was very cold, we were cosy and warm and easily maintained a temperature of above 20c in living areas, which was fine for us, and 18c in spare bedrooms etc.

Our neighbour also had pv installed and she used a 24btu air con unit in her open plan area to keep the temperature above 20c and gel filled electric radiators as a boost, doing away with her free standing and oxygen depleting calor fire for good.

I have possibly mentioned before that last spring during a cold snap we uses the 10 year old air con unit in the lounge on heating mode. We were impressed that it did not use a lot of electricity

But of course in general one of the things needed to keep warm in Winter is Insulation.. We have plenty of that in the false roof and inside the double walls. Usually, we have the gas Central heating on for just one hour in the morning, and one hour at tea time.. But More if it is REALLY cold

trevnhil wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:22 pm I have possibly mentioned before that last spring during a cold snap we uses the 10 year old air con unit in the lounge on heating mode. We were impressed that it did not use a lot of electricity

But of course in general one of the things needed to keep warm in Winter is Insulation.. We have plenty of that in the false roof and inside the double walls. Usually, we have the gas Central heating on for just one hour in the morning, and one hour at tea time.. But More if it is REALLY cold

Thanks, Trev, a useful message. I agree with you about insulation and we have wrapped the outside walls of the house with polystyrene foam, the attic is completely covered by a special metallised plastic foam, held in place by a layer of T and G, the windows are all double glazed and one or two minor things have been done. What we haven't done is the floor, particularly of the living room downstairs but also upstairs by conduction from outside by the rebar reinforcement. I don't think there is anything else we can do, at least conveniently.

I agree that aircon is quite economical but is not very user-friendly. We are using it at the present moment as a top up but said at the right temperature for the job we ask of it!

Anarita John wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 5:55 pm When your pv system comes online you will find it very economical to use your aircon for heating. As you know, for 1kw of electric, and you get at least 3kw of heat. You have not had the advantage of storing kwh yet under the eac net metering scheme, but we have over 4000kwh stored which we will be able to use during the winter to heat our house and pool. Last winter, which was very cold, we were cosy and warm and easily maintained a temperature of above 20c in living areas, which was fine for us, and 18c in spare bedrooms etc.

Our neighbour also had pv installed and she used a 24btu air con unit in her open plan area to keep the temperature above 20c and gel filled electric radiators as a boost, doing away with her free standing and oxygen depleting calor fire for good.

Thank you, Anarita. Hopefully, when the PV system comes online, I will use aircon a bit more, but it is not the be all and end all of heating. We are already, at this altitude, using it a little in the evening and in the bedroom. We will still use the gas-fired central heating as the main background, although it is not yet switched on. Because of our advanced age (my wife is 86 and I am 90) we tend to be a little profligate with our heating requirements. We do not have a pool, thank goodness!

cyprusmax47 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:07 pm As I know from the past, it is very difficult to give you any advise.... however I will try it

In recent posts you mentioned that you will have very soon a photovoltaic system ready and running.

Depending how large it is, I would not run the gas burner anymore and instead installing a air-to-water heat pump which only consumes electricity which your own PV system will provide.

It is not only because I don't like gas for security reasons, it is mainly for our environment and CO2 emissions in my opinion. In our Cyprus climate, heat pumps run very economic as we don't have low temperatures in winter, even at night. Different situation p.e. in Germany with their cold winter, however everybody there is desperate to get a heat pump installed, instead of gas central heating. At the moment with the shortage of gas there, together with extreme high gas prices due to the war in Ukraine, heat pumps are out of stock everywhere. There is also no permit from the Gov. within the next 2 yours for gas/diesel central heating systems anymore...

Max

Thank you for your post. After three years of struggling, I still do not have a PV system working. I have the panels (4 kW) on the roof but nothing connected to them. The reasons for this are multiple and do not concern anyone on this forum.

Just so that you understand, many years ago I was a scientist/engineer working for the United Nations Environment Programme. For this reason, I have always been meticulous about language and especially terminology, units and suchlike. I think that any problems we have had between us have been because of this. (And possibly because I did my studies in a bygone age of the 1940s and early 1950s, when science was a lot more primitive but with a greater accent on precision and language.)

As you know, my principal heating is with gas but the installation, including the radiators in the house, are about five years only old and certainly have not been economically amortised. I am a very old geezer living on the state pension and, therefore, it is out of the question to change them. In particular, the hot water system works at a higher temperature than would be available from a heat pump system, so that would mean having to change all the radiators as well as the heater. I therefore have to continue working with what I have.

My work with UNEP was mainly concerned with ozone depletion and the notion of CO2 global warming was raising its head only in the last two or three years that I headed the team (mainly in the Far East).

Best regards,

Brian

Brian, Thank you for your answer.
First, the disagreement between us was mainly about photo-voltaic when you years ago had only negative comments about it. In the meantime you ordered yourself a system....

You mentioned been always meticulous about language and especially terminology, units and suchlike. When the subject is PV you should also use the correct terms then, specially as you have your own system running soon. Your size of installation is 4 kWp (four kilowatt peak) not 4 kW.
What you call panels on the roof are modules! Panels however are the ones producing hot water.

Concerning to install a air-to-water heat pump: there is no need to replace the radiators which you have already installed as the newest version of heat pumps producing as much as 60 c water temperature and as you have already put insulation on your walls and double glazed windows it would run very economical. You could still use your old gas burner as a back-up.

Max

I am going to try our gas central heating this morning just to see if it is working ok. Better to find any problems now before it gets really cold.
Edit... I have just tried the heating and it is working fine supplying heat to the radiators and to the hot water tank. I have turned the boiler off now, but at least I know that it is working ok.

cyprusmax47 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:37 pm Concerning to install a air-to-water heat pump: there is no need to replace the radiators which you have already installed as the newest version of heat pumps producing as much as 60 c water temperature and as you have already put Insulation on your walls and double glazed windows it would run very economical. You could still use your old gas burner as a back-up.

Max

Sorry, but we need up to 80° C in the cold weather with the current radiators. However, the main reason for not changing to heat pump is €€€. Living on a state pension, I have already spent any spare money with the insulation of the house – I simply could not afford it at this stage.

trevnhil wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:22 am I am going to try our gas central heating this morning just to see if it is working ok. Better to find any problems now before it gets really cold.
Edit... I have just tried the heating and it is working fine supplying heat to the radiators and to the hot water tank. I have turned the boiler off now, but at least I know that it is working ok.

I shall be doing the same, hopefully with similar results today or tomorrow but I have a crisis on my hands at the moment.

Best wishes to you in sorting your crisis out. I hope that your gas boiler works jut fine when you give it a try

Devil wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:49 am

cyprusmax47 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:37 pm Concerning to install a air-to-water heat pump: there is no need to replace the radiators which you have already installed as the newest version of heat pumps producing as much as 60 c water temperature and as you have already put Insulation on your walls and double glazed windows it would run very economical. You could still use your old gas burner as a back-up.

Max

Sorry, but we need up to 80° C in the cold weather with the current radiators. However, the main reason for not changing to heat pump is €€€. Living on a state pension, I have already spent any spare money with the insulation of the house – I simply could not afford it at this stage.

So you are lucky not to live in the UK. There are new regulations there since this summer called Building Regulations part L.

"Improvements are also required in lighting efficiency but perhaps the biggest change is the new low flow temperatures for heating systems. The maximum flow temperatures in a central heating system is now 55°C where it was previously over 75°C. "
The aim is to reduce gas consumption and Co2 emissions.

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/part-l

I spoke with experts at Green Air Paphos and have been told that radiators installed in the last 5 years or so are good enough to be used running heat pumps they install.

High supply temperatures in gas fires are a thing from the past anyway. Here a chart (German) for a average isolated house showing the supply temperature at 0 c or -10 c outdoors. So in Cyprus the lowest temperatures are higher than 0 c at sea level, which means supply temperature of ca 50-55 c. are good enough.



Max

We are soon to be moving to another house and the first thing I want to do is get a photovoltaic system installed. I then want to get a heating system installed that will benefit from the low cost electricity.
The house has provision for radiators but they are not fitted. Do I need them to be installed before I can buy a heat pump or is their a heat pump tha blows warm air into the house saving me buying radiators.

The only heat pump that blows hot air is to be found in modern inverter air cons ...

Thanks, has anybody an idea of the cost of an air/water heat pump that would heat a 3 bedroomed house?

I suggest that you phone Andreas @ Green Air Paphos, 26 941 555
and ask for a price, by giving more information about the size and location of your new house...

Max

Thanks, I am only planning ahead at the moment. and do not want to be given a hard sell. I just need to work out costs and any help from someone who has a heat pump system in Cyprus.
If its expensive I may aswell install inverter A/C units, I know how much they cost.
Max, as you seem to promote this kind of heating system, do you not have any experience in owning a heat pump system?

I'l go for a combination of inverter aircons and electric underfloor heating. For the latter I was quoted €50/sqm + VAT. Of course, I'll have a PV system.

Many thanks for all the replies.
I checked UK based air heat pump costs and they range from 8-18k, so I expect that over here in euros plus Cyprus is always more expensive for imported goods to be more like 12-22k.
Inverter aircon units would cost me around 4-5k, so its a no brainer really.