Paphos Life

The only day care facilities in the UK, where the patients are paid to be there

Dominic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:59 am

Jim B wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:36 am I often cross swords with Jimgym over our definitions of Democracy in the UK, mine being it's unfit for service.
The below article highlights many of my concerns over how "Democracy works in the UK.
I would be interested in other opinions.
Jim

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... blic-power

The author of that article published another one saying we should have more referendums. That's like trying to put a fire out by pouring petrol on it.

I think the article makes some interesting points and I did read an article about more referendums but not certain it was by the same author.

Jim

A second house, to act as a reality check, is a good part of democracy. Keeping it non-political would be ideal, but in reality something closer to the US model, of elected individuals from perhaps a more regional basis, seems to be the only workable method. Perhaps 150 second-house representatives -rather than over 600 MPs. The elections should. not coincide, to allow changes in opinion, by voters.

You bash the Lords but you seem to think that the Commons are the greatest invention since sliced bread. If you carefully look at the way the Commons work, you will see that it is about as democratic as North Korea. MPs belonging to the major parties are forced to toe the line by the whips who control the "democracy" of the voting MPs – and woe betide he or she who defies the party line during a three line whip. Even under lesser circumstances, the whips keep a careful eye on the MPs in their party. Otherwise, there would be no need for the whips to stand at the doors of the lobby, checking off the names of all their party members who enter it. Secret ballot? Never in the UK Parliament!

Yes, I've always found the whips to be decidedly undemocratic, especially as when we vote, we vote for people, not parties.

Jimgward wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:42 pm A second house, to act as a reality check, is a good part of democracy. Keeping it non-political would be ideal, but in reality something closer to the US model, of elected individuals from perhaps a more regional basis, seems to be the only workable method. Perhaps 150 second-house representatives -rather than over 600 MPs. The elections should. not coincide, to allow changes in opinion, by voters.

I would go for about 300 MPs in the Commons. Apart from being more representative with constituencies embodying rural, urban and industrial areas, in each, at least they would have somewhere to sit. One idea for the Lords is to have two for each county, much as the US has two for each state. This would provide a sufficient number of people from all kinds of background. Dream on, devil!

I read an article recently suggesting under the FPTP system you can have voted in every election over your lifetime and never have parliamentary representation.
Where I lived as a child was solid Labour and the Labour candidate didnt even have to campaign at the elections.
At least PR does count an individual's vote.

Proportional representation , for me is the fairest way to go.

We have it in Scotland - and 16 year olds voting

Jimgward wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:22 pm We have it in Scotland - and 16 year olds voting

If 16 year olds are old enough to be sent to War, then their old enough to vote,

If you pay taxes, can get married, have kids, then why not vote? Many think they aren’t mature enough to vote, but it’s surprising how switched on many are.. The other argument against it is usually because at that age they are more ‘moralistic and socialist’ in outlook! So we should exclude them but allow the elderly who are ‘conservative’ in their views, by nature of reticence to change things....

WHL

Young men aged 16/17 years of age may join the army. However, they cannot be sent into a combat zone until they are the age of 18 years.

Firefly wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:01 pm WHL

Young men aged 16/17 years of age may join the army. However, they cannot be sent into a combat zone until they are the age of 18 years.

OK change that to,
If they are old enough to join the Army at 16
then they are old enough to vote.

From Wikipedia
Although the UK normally prohibits deployment to war zones until recruits turn 18, it does not rule out doing so It inadvertently deployed 22 personnel aged under 18 to Iraq and Afghanistan between 2003 and 2010. The Committee on the Rights of the Child has urged the UK to alter its policy so as to ensure that children cannot take part in hostilities under any circumstances. In negotiations on the OPAC during the 1990s the UK joined the US in opposing a global minimum enlistment age of 18.

WHL

I don't agree that if they are old enough to join the Army at 16, it automatically follows that they are old enough to vote.

Your Wikipedia quote does state 'inadvertently deployed 22 personnel' proves my point. Three soldiers under the age of 18 per year, It should not happen, but it did. The rest of your quote goes back 30 years, I think we have moved on since then.

Jackie
Do you think an 18 year old is any more worldly wise than a sixteen year old or a 21 year old more knowledgeable than an 18 year old?
I know when I was 16 politics weren't top of my agenda but I do think the younger generation today are much more politically knowledgeable than I ever was possibly due to social media.


Jim

Jim

Actually yes I do. Social media has a lot to answer for, much of it is untrue, some partly true, and a good amount is omitted, which we ought to know.

We are all affected by what we read and hear. I believe that at least, the two years between the ages of 16 and eighteen, would have left a person better informed, therefore more able to make and informed decision. As far as I know, children are classed as such until the age of eighteen, therefore one would be permitting children to decide how, and by whom, our country is run, that cannot be.

Not your point, but as far as the military point is concerned, I would suggest that a fair few young men who join the Army at 16, will have decided that Army life is not for them, by the age of eighteen.

Jackie

And plenty of the under 18 new lads cannot wait to deploy on Operations,

I was 18 when I started the basic training in the army. At the time, I had no qualms about being a member of His Majesty's Armed Forces, although I do not consider it as being a highlight of my life. I was not quite apolitical at the time, having been brought up in a very conservative household. It was just after the National Health Service and the pension schemes were introduced. I remember my parents were opposed to everything that the Attlee government introduced and I think that we had a few minor family arguments about them. I possibly – at that time – had a few thoughts about the poverty in central Edinburgh, with the children obviously ill clothed and shoeless; I am sure that I did not understand why and I obviously did nothing about it in our comfortable middle-class environment.

Entry into the army was not traumatic for me as I had been a member of the school Junior Training Corps. However it was a lesson with my fellow soldiers from every corner of the UK and from every type of background.

I think I was probably beginning to be bolshie at that time because I was ordered to attend a War Office Selection Board with a view to officer training. I was marched in to a long room with a table at the far end at which three officers were seated. After announcing name, rank and number I was asked one question, "why do you want to become an officer?". I replied, "Sir, I never said that I did; I was ordered to come here!". I was immediately marched out of the room. I believe that this experience probably shaped my political views, although they did not really materialise for many years after.

I obviously had a mind of my own even at that time. My military career, lasting 2 1/2 years, started in the cadre of Catterick camp from where I was eventually selected for a special telecommunications job, ending up in the little-known Cyprus Signals Squadron in the outskirts of Nicosia. I was instrumental in setting up communications to GHQ in Fayid, in the Canal zone of Egypt. This was my first contact with Cyprus, arriving on the day that the king died.

Thank you Devil.

Jim

I have more faith, frankly in 16 year olds voting, who have maybe 70 years of life in front of them, than 80 year olds with 6... Too many voters are selfish in their outlook, rather than for the country as a whole.