Encouraging news over Brexit.

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Les Bean
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Les Bean » Fri May 22, 2020 7:02 pm

Firefly wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:45 pm
Jimgw


There are still women I know who still feel bitter about their rejection as a workforce, it matters not what era we are talking about.

Women of my generation didn't usually go out to work before their children were of school age. The obvious way to earn money in this area was to go fruit picking, taking their young children with them.

What you say in no way alters the point I made, the fruit farmer truly shot himself in the foot, well and truly.
I don't quite follow how the present day farmers have "shot themselves in the foot", the (probably with good reason) aggrieved housewives are too old to do this kind of work now, and these days there are no longer many housewives either willing or able to do the work. The world has moved on, and for many years now the whole of Europe has been the workforce pool... that is what is being changed and it is far removed from farmers of yesteryear subbing housewives for cheap labour

Les Bean
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Les Bean » Fri May 22, 2020 7:03 pm

Or subbing cheap labour for housewives😂😂

Firefly
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Firefly » Sat May 23, 2020 3:18 pm

LB

The tradition of fruit picking ran in families here.

I believe that women of today would still carry on that tradition, as they had been brought up in the belief that that's what you do for extra cash. Their children played together out in the fields, with mum on hand if needed.

I appreciate that men of today don't necessarily understand how it worked, so it has to be dismissed as a thing of the past, and yes it is, because the farmers decided that it would be. Now they are whinging that they can't get pickers, their choice.

However, why we are paying unemployment benefits to people who are fit and able to work, when pickers are needed is beyond me.
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Uncle D
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Uncle D » Sat May 23, 2020 3:42 pm

Firefly wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:18 pm
However, why we are paying unemployment benefits to people who are fit and able to work, when pickers are needed is beyond me.
Exactly, Its a joke
No unemployment benefit payed to fit and healthy people, work in the fields and get payed the going rate, if they refuse or get sacked no benefit. When the work/season is finished, back on benefits.
David

Jim B
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Jim B » Sat May 23, 2020 7:00 pm

There would be riots if you tried to force the unemployed into the fields, isn't that what the Khmer Rouge did to the populace in Cambodia?

Jim

Les Bean
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Les Bean » Sat May 23, 2020 7:37 pm

Firefly wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:18 pm
LB

The tradition of fruit picking ran in families here.

I believe that women of today would still carry on that tradition, as they had been brought up in the belief that that's what you do for extra cash. Their children played together out in the fields, with mum on hand if needed.

I appreciate that men of today don't necessarily understand how it worked, so it has to be dismissed as a thing of the past, and yes it is, because the farmers decided that it would be. Now they are whinging that they can't get pickers, their choice.

However, why we are paying unemployment benefits to people who are fit and able to work, when pickers are needed is beyond me.
But it's not their choice is it?, because the labour pool has been drastically reduced. Still can't imagine many of today's women reviving the tradition, good as it was. As for children playing in the fields...... again lovely, but unfortunately not really practical in today's world.
Your nostalgia is understandable, and the pastoral images delightful, but is in a time warp and long since gone

Firefly
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Firefly » Sun May 24, 2020 2:06 pm

Les

Yes it was delightful, thank God I'm not young now.

I was merely pointing out that part of the farmers dilemma was down to them, and their past actions.
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Dominic » Sun May 24, 2020 3:12 pm

They sowed, so they reaped.

Incidentally, comparing any of this to the Khmer Rouge and their attempt at building, by force, a peasant-based Argarian Society is a bit like comparing the inconvenience of having to queue at a bank to the Nazi holocaust.
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Uncle D
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Uncle D » Sun May 24, 2020 3:55 pm

Jim B wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:00 pm
There would be riots if you tried to force the unemployed into the fields, isn't that what the Khmer Rouge did to the populace in Cambodia?
Jim
I usually respect what you have to say Jim, but thats sensationalism in the extreme.

But aren't the people on Jobseekers allowance supposed to be seeking Jobs? if so, there it is 'paid work'.
David

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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Jim B » Sun May 24, 2020 5:56 pm

It may be sensationalism but that is what happened or do you both dispute it? Yes, it is an extreme example but forcing people to work in the fields is the thin end of the wedge and basically boils down to forced labour which is how the Nazi's started out.

The point being is Firefly is suggesting people on unemployment benefits be sent into the fields and pick crops. Does that mean everyone from sixteen to sixty five should go into the fields?
Many who have recently become unemployed have never done physical labour in their lives and to expect these people to go and pick vegetables all day is ridiculous.

Jim

Uncle D
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Uncle D » Sun May 24, 2020 6:54 pm

Jim B wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:56 pm
The point being is Firefly is suggesting people on unemployment benefits be sent into the fields and pick crops. Does that mean everyone from sixteen to sixty five should go into the fields?
Many who have recently become unemployed have never done physical labour in their lives and to expect these people to go and pick vegetables all day is ridiculous.Jim
I would say use your imagination on what I have said, but that hasnt been very successful with even more extreme remarks.

Just to help your imagination a bit I will add a bit more detail to what I think should happen, so say all fit and healthy people on Jobseekers aged 16 - 36 who have been unemployed for more than 6 months.
Now pick away at that :roll:
David

Firefly
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Firefly » Sun May 24, 2020 6:56 pm

Jim B

If you read my post, I did say 'fit and healthy people'.

Your suggestion that the unemployed who have never experienced physical labour, should not be expected to pick vegetables all day, quite frankly I find quite amusing. I would suggest that they might well benefit from the experience. Fresh air and exercise, probably just what they're short of. ;)
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Jim B » Sun May 24, 2020 7:27 pm

Jackie
Being someone who worked an average of between 60 and 84 hours a week in temperatures from minus 40 up to plus 50°C I really don't need advice from someone who most probably sat behind a desk for most of their working life about the benefits of working outside. I did heavy physical work half my working life and even had a go at one time working in the fields around Ormskirk where I lived and being honest it nearly killed me even with all the fresh air and exercise. How many years did you work in the fields Jackie, I'd really be interested to know?
I'd also be really interested to know how, once you get them to the fields how you're going to get them to do anything. I say that from experience when the job centres used to send us workers to work on construction sites and we had to release them after a couple of days because they just went through the motions but they got their books stamped to say they had turned up for work.
David, as I said from experience you can force them to go to the fields by threatening to withdraw their benefits but once they're there you cannot force them to do anything.

Jim

Jim

Firefly
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Firefly » Sun May 24, 2020 7:44 pm

Jim

I was interested to see the extremes or your working hours, and the vast difference in temperatures, I too would be interested to know where this was. Being a Lancastrian myself, I cannot imagine that this was Ormskirk.

Some of my working life has been spent behind a desk, that said, quite a few years were spent nursing in the NHS, I have the damaged spine and hip replacements to show for it. I came to Herefordshire with my husband when his work brought him here, and when my son was under school age, I went with a friend apple and pear picking. I loved it, and would do it now if I was fit enough.

How to make them work ? how do you make anyone work, no work no money. The fruit farmer teaches how and what to pick, and will know how much on average a person can pick in a day. Make a decent effort, get paid, no effort to pick, no money.

Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Jim B
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Jim B » Sun May 24, 2020 8:07 pm

Jackie
I worked in Central Asia where the temperatures fluctuate, the coldest I ever experience was minus 52 °C with a wind chill of minus 72. I also worked in the UAE desert where the temperatures were often in excess of 50°C in the summer.
No, you can't make people work.unless you force them or give them an incentive.
Many would just go home and start stealing and then there would be riots and looting, people will just not sit by and starve. It doesn't take much to start a riot as we've seen time and time again, as you well know police numbers are down around twenty thousand from 10 years ago and are struggling as it is without creating further problems.

Jim

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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Firefly » Mon May 25, 2020 1:34 pm

Jim

Reading between the lines of what you say, it seems that you are suggesting that many people on unemployment benefit, only do so to ensure that they don't have to work, and if required to work, would then start riots which would be followed by general mayhem.

A tad extreme I feel, and I don't agree that this would be the result of the 'no work, no benefit' idea. We could give it a go, and see which one of us is right. One thing I do agree with you on, is the reduction in police numbers, it's a disgrace.

Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Jim B
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Jim B » Mon May 25, 2020 6:46 pm

Jackie
What I'm suggesting is you can't force people into work by threatening to starve them which is what you're indirectly proposing. Every action has a reaction, we've see numerous riots over the years and most (rightly or wrongly) were due to claims of heavy handedness by the police. It doesn't take much to light the blue touch paper.
Most people I know who have signed on did it to get the NI contribution paid, unemployment benefit is a pittance contrary to popular belief. As I've said before my elder sister was one of the Job Centres top managers and they had to stop benefits to anyone who was believed to be swinging the lead. The days of the free ride have long gone.

Jim

Firefly
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Firefly » Mon May 25, 2020 6:59 pm

Jim

We can discuss this until we are blue in the face.

One point, if your elder sister stopped benefits, why weren't there riots, which you claim would be the result ? The other being that I do not accept that the days of a free ride have long gone. We disagree, enough said.

I'm sure the other posters on this thread are finding our posts tedious, and I don't intend to carry on this discussion with you. No offence.

Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Jim B
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Re: Encouraging news over Brexit.

Post by Jim B » Mon May 25, 2020 8:50 pm

Yes you're right.
I'm sure stopping benefits of thousands won't cause any more problems than stopping the odd claimants benefit.
I'll leave it there.

Jim🤐

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