Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgward » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:57 pm

If the majority of the population really want to leave - why not have a second referendum to underpin the first? Or are the proponents of leave afraid or are the proponents of democracy only in favour of single-decision democracy?

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:17 pm

Jimgward wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:57 pm
If the majority of the population really want to leave - why not have a second referendum to underpin the first? Or are the proponents of leave afraid or are the proponents of democracy only in favour of single-decision democracy?
Why on earth should they?? Just because Remain lost they continually call for a second referendum as if Tus was some sort of best of 3 competition. There was a vote, the issue presented was decided, end of. It’s not a question of leave voters being afraid, it's a question of Remain voters being unable to accept that they lost. For Remainers to talk of democracy whilst trying to block it is quite frankly absurd.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:06 pm

Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:46 pm

Jim B wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:06 pm
Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

Jim
No Jim, leave voters voted to do just that, as did Remain for that. However it’s dressed up, and there have been many variations, including leave voters being variably, racist, thick, Little Englanders, anti immigration etc. The vote was in favour of leave and no amount of obfuscation will alter that fact, and fact it is.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:37 pm

Jimgym wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:46 pm
Jim B wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:06 pm
Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

Jim
No Jim, leave voters voted to do just that, as did Remain for that. However it’s dressed up, and there have been many variations, including leave voters being variably, racist, thick, Little Englanders, anti immigration etc. The vote was in favour of leave and no amount of obfuscation will alter that fact, and fact it is.
Jimgym wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:17 pm
There was a vote, the issue presented was decided
No, there was no decision on leaving the common market nor the customs union.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:49 pm

jeba wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:37 pm
Jimgym wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:46 pm
Jim B wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:06 pm
Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

Jim
No Jim, leave voters voted to do just that, as did Remain for that. However it’s dressed up, and there have been many variations, including leave voters being variably, racist, thick, Little Englanders, anti immigration etc. The vote was in favour of leave and no amount of obfuscation will alter that fact, and fact it is.
Jimgym wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:17 pm
There was a vote, the issue presented was decided
No, there was no decision on leaving the common market nor the customs union.
This is what Cameron said at the time. It has been widely reported.......

David Cameron confirmed Sunday that he will pull Britain out of the single market if there is a vote to leave the European Union at the upcoming referendum.

The prime minister told the BBC’s Andrew Marr show that it would be impossible to copy the Norwegian model by remaining inside the trading bloc despite being outside the EU because that would mean accepting freedom of movement and trade rules made in Brussels. The prime minister said: “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.”

From The Spectator. Leading Remainers also made it clear that voting Leave would likely entail pulling Britain out of the single market. David Cameron said: ‘What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.’ George Osborne echoed him: ‘We would be out of the single market.’ There you go: the two then most powerful men in Britain saying Leave would mean leaving the single market.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgward » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am

Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Happy in Cyprus » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:26 am

Dominic wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:05 am
I gave one a while back though. Not having to abide by CAP.
So what is it about the CAP that:

a) you don't like?
b) you feel is so damaging to the UK generally that it is worth the country going through the self-inflicted trauma which it has been through over the past 3 years?

My understanding is that Britain's farmers now live in fear of the consequences of Brexit, as this article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... eal-brexit makes clear:

Here's just a few short paragraphs from the article:

Today’s report, written by Séan Rickard, the former chief economist of the National Farmers’ Union – and launched by Farmers for a People’s Vote – is a forensic analysis of the effect of a crash-out Brexit, which the government will struggle to refute. The high proportion of UK farm exports to the EU would stop, barred by regulatory barriers and deterred by tariffs: 27% on chickens, 46% on lamb and 65% on beef. Cereals would be hit too. The government says it will remove or sharply lower all tariffs on imported food to keep prices down as the pound plunges. But this report shows how that import surge would wreck British farming.

WTO rules mean Britain must let in food from all over the world on the same tariffs and terms, no picking and choosing, open to all comers. Brazilian beef costs 50% less, US cereals 30% less. What leverage will the UK have for any future deals with the US or anyone, if we have already removed most tariffs?

Some 60% of farm incomes depend on subsidies from the EU’s basic payment scheme.
Michael Gove promised to replace it with environmental subsidies – but only until 2022. Rickard rightly doubts that the same sums will be forthcoming in future when competing for funds with all the other urgent spending needs.

...and...

Patrick Minford, the Brexiteers’ favoured economist, wants shops flooded with cheap imports floating free on global commodities markets, unfettered by regulatory checks, with no tariffs or protection for home produce. Cheap food, promised by Jacob Rees-Mogg, will please consumers and Minford is sanguine about farmers, fishers and most British manufacturers going to the wall. That’s a price worth paying, a valid trade-off for market extremists, who are careless about food security, happy for us to grow nothing ourselves, leaving us wholly dependent on world markets. Minfordites are untouched by the romance of farming or the pull of manufacturing – shrugging them off as relatively small parts of the economy. Finance and services are the only future.

...and...

The tragedy is that so many farmers voted for this destruction of their own livelihoods: Rickard says they were seduced by Owen Paterson, who toured rural areas telling farmers that after Brexit they could have all the advantages of sales to the EU with none of the regulation and paperwork. Now, at the 11th hour, this report should be a wake-up call for what no deal means. “They can stop insulting us and calling this project fear. Let them come up with their own figures,” Rickard challenges the government.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:28 am

Jimgym wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:46 pm
Jim B wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:06 pm
Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

Jim
No Jim, leave voters voted to do just that, as did Remain for that. However it’s dressed up, and there have been many variations, including leave voters being variably, racist, thick, Little Englanders, anti immigration etc. The vote was in favour of leave and no amount of obfuscation will alter that fact, and fact it is.
Alan
If you recall it was all "Project Fear" according to the Brexit leaders and the UK could have anything it asked for and people believed it. My eldest sister voted Brexit because she wants England to be how it was in the fifties. A friend of mine voted leave because he wants ALL immigrants out; black white and all colours in between out and no matter what you say he's convinced it will stop immiģration. Immiģration appears to be the reoccurring theme from most Brexit supporters I've spoken to.
If we don't change tack we will be still be discussing Brexit in 12 months time; there's every possibility even with a general election we will be at the same impasse we are presently in. It appears that a new referendum is the only way to break the circle whether we like it or not.

Jim

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:43 am

Jimgward wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am
Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325
So, even though the Prime Minister informed the country what a leave vote would mean in regards to the single market, that, according to you isn't good enough?

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:01 am

Jimgym wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:43 am
Jimgward wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am
Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325
So, even though the Prime Minister informed the country what a leave vote would mean in regards to the single market, that, according to you isn't good enough?
But the Brexit leaders were saying exactly the opposite and poo pooing everything the government was saying. They promised the people that they could have their cake and eat it and people believed it. Everything experts said was Project Fear and we were all sick of experts according to Gove; there was a promise for everyone from rainbows and unicorns to stopping immigration.
So, no, many didn't believe or care what Cameron said or did, they believed all the lies made by Gove, Davies......

Jim

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:23 am

Jim, the constant complaint from Remain voters is that Leave voters didn't know what they were voting for etc, etc. I post evidence to the contrary but it seems, like snow, and leaves on a train track its the wrong sort of evidence! You can't have it both ways. If people choose not to believe someone that is up to them, but the facts were put out there, and it's up to individuals to do with them as they wish. As to Project Fear, it was real, and they did lie. it has been proven time and again, and saying it isn't true, and blaming Project Fear on Brexiteers is quite frankly ridiculous.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:19 pm

Alan
The vote came on the back of seven years of austerity by David Cameron's government, to many it was just a protest vote against that.

But the point is now the situation is just going round in circles and we have a Mexican Standoff. We can't just keep going infinitum, we've had a general election which solved nothing and countless manouverings by both sides and we are no closer to a decision. Do we keep doing what we're doing and try to wear each other down while both sides become more entrenched or now have a referendum on whether to remain or accept Blojo' s deal or even no deal.
Like it or not most Remainers will not accept the result because righthly or wrongly they believe it was a stitch up. Now the vast majority of the electorate know what the result of Brexit will mean for the country and themselves and as said earlier the only way out of this impasse is to have another referendum or we'll still be arguing over Brexit this time next year.


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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by outasite » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:20 pm

How about having a second referendum.........but with exactly the same wording.....Leave or Remain. We have all had over 3 years of pantomime, quarreling, breaking of Parliamentary precedence, MPs quitting membership of parties on whose manifests they were elected on. And if the majority is Leave, yet again, will the remainers accept it with good grace. And will those who do not bother to vote then keep the opinions to themselves. I would think if it was remain, the result would be accepted, though not without much grumbling from Leave voters. And much noisy celebration through the night from the general direction of Ha Potami.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:37 pm

outasite wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:20 pm
How about having a second referendum.........but with exactly the same wording.....Leave or Remain. We have all had over 3 years of pantomime, quarreling, breaking of Parliamentary precedence, MPs quitting membership of parties on whose manifests they were elected on. And if the majority is Leave, yet again, will the remainers accept it with good grace. And will those who do not bother to vote then keep the opinions to themselves. I would think if it was remain, the result would be accepted, though not without much grumbling from Leave voters. And much noisy celebration through the night from the general direction of Ha Potami.
Have another referendum, and if the vote is to Remain, then let's ignore it. Sounds fair to me!!

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:40 pm

Jim B wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:19 pm
Alan
The vote came on the back of seven years of austerity by David Cameron's government, to many it was just a protest vote against that.

But the point is now the situation is just going round in circles and we have a Mexican Standoff. We can't just keep going infinitum, we've had a general election which solved nothing and countless manouverings by both sides and we are no closer to a decision. Do we keep doing what we're doing and try to wear each other down while both sides become more entrenched or now have a referendum on whether to remain or accept Blojo' s deal or even no deal.
Like it or not most Remainers will not accept the result because righthly or wrongly they believe it was a stitch up. Now the vast majority of the electorate know what the result of Brexit will mean for the country and themselves and as said earlier the only way out of this impasse is to have another referendum or we'll still be arguing over Brexit this time next year.


Jim
It's irrelevant when the vote came, people were given the information and they voted. The result needs to be implemented, there should be no argument with that. Many politicians went on record at the time to say just that, yet they are now reneging. Most remainers won't accept it yet expect those who voted leave to agree to a second referendum.Why on earth should we? We had one, Remainers thought they were going to win and are still coming to terms with the fact they badly misjudged things. I don't always like the result of democracy but I have to accept it, along with everyone else.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:17 pm

Jimgward wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am
Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....
Exactly. Plus even if the argument that Cameron mentioned the common market was a sound argument -which I don´t think it is- it would still not justify pulling out of the customs union. If I was British I´d tear my hair in desperation because nobody seems to care about those details.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:22 pm

Jimgym wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:43 am
Jimgward wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am
Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325
So, even though the Prime Minister informed the country what a leave vote would mean in regards to the single market, that, according to you isn't good enough?
No. It would only have been good enough it this was stated on the ballot paper. Plus there would have to be stated that it meant leaving the customs union as well.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:23 pm

Jimgym wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:40 pm
Jim B wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:19 pm
Alan
The vote came on the back of seven years of austerity by David Cameron's government, to many it was just a protest vote against that.

But the point is now the situation is just going round in circles and we have a Mexican Standoff. We can't just keep going infinitum, we've had a general election which solved nothing and countless manouverings by both sides and we are no closer to a decision. Do we keep doing what we're doing and try to wear each other down while both sides become more entrenched or now have a referendum on whether to remain or accept Blojo' s deal or even no deal.
Like it or not most Remainers will not accept the result because righthly or wrongly they believe it was a stitch up. Now the vast majority of the electorate know what the result of Brexit will mean for the country and themselves and as said earlier the only way out of this impasse is to have another referendum or we'll still be arguing over Brexit this time next year.


Jim
It's irrelevant when the vote came, people were given the information and they voted. The result needs to be implemented, there should be no argument with that. Many politicians went on record at the time to say just that, yet they are now reneging. Most remainers won't accept it yet expect those who voted leave to agree to a second referendum.Why on earth should we? We had one, Remainers thought they were going to win and are still coming to terms with the fact they badly misjudged things. I don't always like the result of democracy but I have to accept it, along with everyone else.
I disagree Alan, the timing of the referendum was crucial; the Tories took a pasting in the following General Election when May lost her massive majority. If Brexit was the B all and end all for the people they would have followed on by supporting the Tories or UKIP but they didnt; May lost her majority and UKIP all but disappeared from the political scene, many people used their vote in the referendum to vote against austerity and then did it again in the GE.
You are right in that Remain badly misjudged things but most feel they were stitched up by lies and fraud and that's why they refuse to accept the result.
As said we can argue these points till we're blue in the face but if we want to move on we have to grasp the nettle.
As for Project Fear, jobs are being lost, factories are closing, value of the pound about 12% down and cost of living (according to my Brexit Sister) is going up weekly so it's turning out to be prophetic.

Jim

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:24 pm

jeba wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:22 pm
Jimgym wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:43 am
Jimgward wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am
Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325
So, even though the Prime Minister informed the country what a leave vote would mean in regards to the single market, that, according to you isn't good enough?
No. It would only have been good enough it this was stated on the ballot paper. Plus there would have to be stated that it meant leaving the customs union as well.
No, it was good enough for the Prime Minister, it was good enough when Remain thoughts they were going to win. Goalposts are not there to be constantly moved. There was a vote, Leave won, can we for goodness sake put it to bed!

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