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Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:41 pm
by jeba
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:10 pm
Oh I know Jim, apparently leave doesn’t actually mean that for some “R” voters........
Apparently, for some "leave the EU" actually means "leave the EU + the common market + the customs union".
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:35 am
by Jim B
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:10 pm
Jim B wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:02 pm
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:33 pm
Jim I’m not going to continue to repeat myself. You obviously do not want to accept the result of a democratic vote. Repeating yourself won’t change anything. It saddens me that people are so opposed to democracy.
Alan it saddens me that many highly intelligent people don't appear to understand how the British "Democratic System" works.
Jim
Oh I know Jim, apparently leave doesn’t actually mean that for some “R” voters........
Alan
You repeatedly put forward your argument about the democratic vote but by your own argument in 2015 the Conservatives only received 36.9 of the vote but took power and then implemented the referendum even though a majority of 63.1 voted against them.
Since 2009 the same party has been trying to change the Ward Boundaries to give themselves a stronger hold in the First Past the Post system which favours only the larger parties.
All parties use Whips to threaten and cajole party members to vote for the party.
This is the system you and many others try to defend, a system that if you read the definition is not democratic.
We have parties taking control with a minority of the vote and Leavers support this system and then accuse Remainers of being undemocratic.
Jim
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:29 am
by kingfisher
Morning Jim,
I can only recall two ballots in the last few years which could be called democratic.
The first was the Referendum, in which any sane adult who could read and stay awake was eligible to put their mark. Won by Leave.
The second was the EU [Yes EU!!] elections. Although not absolutely proportional- I believe the system is slightly skewed to the smaller parties contesting- which was won by the newly-formed Brexit Party, incidentally making it the largest party in the EU parliament….
I came across something amusing when I went to the dictionary to check the word “leave”, which appears to be giving some trouble presently. Were I a weasely Remainer lawyer desperately scratching around trying my damndest to find a loophole in the Leave case, I would simply cite the dictionary definition of Leave:
The primary meaning is given as: “to go away.”
However, it also means “to allow or cause to remain”(!!!)
e.g. “The parts he disliked he would alter and the parts he didn’t dislike he’d leave”
Jon.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:19 pm
by Firefly
The basic problem as I see it was that the coward Cameron told the British people that if they voted to leave, we would, can't remember his exact words but they went on the lines that, you the people will decide, if you vote leave I will immediately trigger article 50. Blah blah blah. All of course a downright lie and utter rubbish.
Since then the remain voters have pounced on the weakness and lies of all sides, and we have been going round in circles for the past three years, getting nowhere. At last we have a Brexit P.M. who will I believe carry out the majority of voters wishes at the time of the referendum. If Cameron had had the guts to do what he promised he would, it would all have been over long ago. He failed us, and left a total mess for someone else to deal with. He was so confident that project fear would win, he failed to prepare for Brexit in any way shape or form.
Lloyd, thank you Dear for your amazing description, but your delusions are reaching heights that I don't think anyone had dreamed of.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:17 pm
by WHL
Firefly wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:19 pm
The basic problem as I see it was that the coward Cameron told the British people that if they voted to leave, we would, can't remember his exact words but they went on the lines that, you the people will decide, if you vote leave I will immediately trigger article 50. Blah blah blah. All of course a downright lie and utter rubbish.
Since then the remain voters have pounced on the weakness and lies of all sides, and we have been going round in circles for the past three years, getting nowhere. At last we have a Brexit P.M. who will I believe carry out the majority of voters wishes at the time of the referendum. If Cameron had had the guts to do what he promised he would, it would all have been over long ago. He failed us, and left a total mess for someone else to deal with. He was so confident that project fear would win, he failed to prepare for Brexit in any way shape or form.
Lloyd, thank you Dear for your amazing description, but your delusions are reaching height that I don't think anyone had dreamed of.
Brexit = Turkeys finally voting for Christmas
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:28 pm
by Firefly
Whatever
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:48 pm
by Jim B
Jon
It's not suprising that our Learned Judges at the Supreme Court have a totally opposite viewpoint on whether
the referendum was fair or not and decided it could not
be made void because it was only advisory and had no legal standing. If you scroll up you will find a link confirming if it ha legal standing it would have had to be re-run.
Jim
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:36 pm
by Jimgym
Jim B wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:35 am
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:10 pm
Jim B wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:02 pm
Alan it saddens me that many highly intelligent people don't appear to understand how the British "Democratic System" works.
Jim
Oh I know Jim, apparently leave doesn’t actually mean that for some “R” voters........
Alan
You repeatedly put forward your argument about the democratic vote but by your own argument in 2015 the Conservatives only received 36.9 of the vote but took power and then implemented the referendum even though a majority of 63.1 voted against them.
Since 2009 the same party has been trying to change the Ward Boundaries to give themselves a stronger hold in the First Past the Post system which favours only the larger parties.
All parties use Whips to threaten and cajole party members to vote for the party.
This is the system you and many others try to defend, a system that if you read the definition is not democratic.
We have parties taking control with a minority of the vote and Leavers support this system and then accuse Remainers of being undemocratic.
Jim
Did they win more seats than any other party? Did the public vote for them? Were they voted in with a manifesto? I’m really struggling to see what’s wrong with that. I’m coming to the rapid conclusion that Remainers only like democracy when the vote goes their way.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:38 pm
by Firefly
Jimgym
Of course, that's why they're shouting about another referendum, because they lost, and don't like it.
Jackie
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:59 pm
by Firefly
Oh dear, that doesn't even deserve a reply.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:43 pm
by Jim B
Jimgym wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:36 pm
Jim B wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:35 am
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:10 pm
Oh I know Jim, apparently leave doesn’t actually mean that for some “R” voters........
Alan
You repeatedly put forward your argument about the democratic vote but by your own argument in 2015 the Conservatives only received 36.9 of the vote but took power and then implemented the referendum even though a majority of 63.1 voted against them.
Since 2009 the same party has been trying to change the Ward Boundaries to give themselves a stronger hold in the First Past the Post system which favours only the larger parties.
All parties use Whips to threaten and cajole party members to vote for the party.
This is the system you and many others try to defend, a system that if you read the definition is not democratic.
We have parties taking control with a minority of the vote and Leavers support this system and then accuse Remainers of being undemocratic.
Jim
Did they win more seats than any other party? Did the public vote for them? Were they voted in with a manifesto? I’m really struggling to see what’s wrong with that. I’m coming to the rapid conclusion that Remainers only like democracy when the vote goes their way.
The answer is NO, only 36.9% voted for them and NO they didn't win more seats that's why they had to pay a bribe to the DUP to get their support. 63.1% of the voters voted against their manifesto so that was rejected as well. Democracy in the UK is not fit for purpose and as proven you can lose on all fronts and still get into power. It's not about leave Or remain it's about a corrupt voting system.
Jim
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:01 pm
by Jimgym
Jim B wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:43 pm
Jimgym wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:36 pm
Jim B wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:35 am
Alan
You repeatedly put forward your argument about the democratic vote but by your own argument in 2015 the Conservatives only received 36.9 of the vote but took power and then implemented the referendum even though a majority of 63.1 voted against them.
Since 2009 the same party has been trying to change the Ward Boundaries to give themselves a stronger hold in the First Past the Post system which favours only the larger parties.
All parties use Whips to threaten and cajole party members to vote for the party.
This is the system you and many others try to defend, a system that if you read the definition is not democratic.
We have parties taking control with a minority of the vote and Leavers support this system and then accuse Remainers of being undemocratic.
Jim
Did they win more seats than any other party? Did the public vote for them? Were they voted in with a manifesto? I’m really struggling to see what’s wrong with that. I’m coming to the rapid conclusion that Remainers only like democracy when the vote goes their way.
The answer is NO, only 36.9% voted for them and NO they didn't win more seats that's why they had to pay a bribe to the DUP to get their support. 63.1% of the voters voted against their manifesto so that was rejected as well. Democracy in the UK is not fit for purpose and as proven you can lose on all fronts and still get into power. It's not about leave Or remain it's about a corrupt voting system.
Jim
So you’re saying the Tories didn’t win more seats than any other party? Odd because I’m fairly certain they did..... The losing side always say something is unfair and that’s why they lost but Remainers have taken that to a whole new low.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:17 pm
by Dominic
The Tories were elected fair and square, using the same system the UK has used for ages. Let's not turn this into a debate on proportional representation.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:17 pm
by Dominic
The Tories were elected fair and square, using the same system the UK has used for ages. Let's not turn this into a debate on proportional representation.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:23 pm
by Jim B
Jimgym wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:01 pm
Jim B wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:43 pm
Jimgym wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:36 pm
Did they win more seats than any other party? Did the public vote for them? Were they voted in with a manifesto? I’m really struggling to see what’s wrong with that. I’m coming to the rapid conclusion that Remainers only like democracy when the vote goes their way.
The answer is NO, only 36.9% voted for them and NO they didn't win more seats that's why they had to pay a bribe to the DUP to get their support. 63.1% of the voters voted against their manifesto so that was rejected as well. Democracy in the UK is not fit for purpose and as proven you can lose on all fronts and still get into power. It's not about leave Or remain it's about a corrupt voting system.
Jim
So you’re saying the Tories didn’t win more seats than any other party? Odd because I’m fairly certain they did..... The losing side always say something is unfair and that’s why they lost but Remainers have taken that to a whole new low.
Alan
I can't see where I wrote MORE THAN ANY OTHER PARTY, I said they didn't win MORE SEATS and had to BRIBE the DUP with 1 billion pounds.to gain a majority. The Tories won 318 seats out of a possible 650 so what I wrote is actually correct; they were a minority government until they paid off the DUP.
As I keep saying it's all there in black white.
Jim
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ir ... s-44397110
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:23 pm
by Jim B
Jimgym wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:01 pm
Jim B wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:43 pm
Jimgym wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:36 pm
Did they win more seats than any other party? Did the public vote for them? Were they voted in with a manifesto? I’m really struggling to see what’s wrong with that. I’m coming to the rapid conclusion that Remainers only like democracy when the vote goes their way.
The answer is NO, only 36.9% voted for them and NO they didn't win more seats that's why they had to pay a bribe to the DUP to get their support. 63.1% of the voters voted against their manifesto so that was rejected as well. Democracy in the UK is not fit for purpose and as proven you can lose on all fronts and still get into power. It's not about leave Or remain it's about a corrupt voting system.
Jim
So you’re saying the Tories didn’t win more seats than any other party? Odd because I’m fairly certain they did..... The losing side always say something is unfair and that’s why they lost but Remainers have taken that to a whole new low.
Alan
I can't see where I wrote MORE THAN ANY OTHER PARTY, I said they didn't win MORE SEATS and had to BRIBE the DUP with 1 billion pounds.to gain a majority. The Tories won 318 seats out of a possible 650 so what I wrote is actually correct; they were a minority government until they paid off the DUP.
As I keep saying it's all there in black white.
Jim
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ir ... s-44397110
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:00 pm
by Jimgym
No Jim what you wrote was incorrect. I asked”Did they win more seats than any other party? and you replied with “NO they didn't win more seats” Again, fairly clear to me. Remained logic at work again it seems.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:02 pm
by Jimgym
Firefly wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:59 pm
Oh dear, that doesn't even deserve a reply.
Remainers believe they deserve another referendum, people tell them so and they believe it. Bless.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:29 pm
by Jim B
Alan
I apologise, I misunderstood the line about more seats than any other party, I was referring to a majority of seats in parliament.
Jim
PS I just edited missed to misunderstood.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:42 pm
by Jimgward
Boris is filibustering about a no-deal and 31st October, knowing he cannot deliver either. He is hoping the EU offer a changed deal that he can put to a vote. It’s his only way out. If the EU don’t concede he will have to call a general election as he has zero chance to get a no-deal passed and if he attempts proroguing parliament he will be kicked out.