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Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:11 am
by Jimgym
I shall repeat again for the benefit of Lloyd, democracy is always worth it.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:23 am
by Jim B
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:11 am
I shall repeat again for the benefit of Lloyd, democracy is always worth it.
Alan
Our democratic system is broken and not fit for purpose; thats the top and bottom of it.
I would suggest watching "The Great Hack" on Netflix which shows how flawed the referendum was.
As I keep informing you the referendum had no legal status and was only advisory. The government's position was to weigh up the pro's and con's of the result and then make a decision on what is best for the UK; that's how our representative democracy is supposed to work, unfortunately every action taken to date has been to save the Conservative party and not what's best for the people.
Jim
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:31 am
by Jimgym
Les Bean wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:28 am
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:11 am
I shall repeat again for the benefit of Lloyd, democracy is always worth it.
Sorry, but that sounds to me a meaningless sound byte in the same league as "Let's take back control" "Brexit means Brexit" and so forth
Then my point obviously went over your head. I was asked if it was worth it and because it is democracy in action then yes it is worth it. Start complaining when you don’t have the right to vote.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:34 am
by Jimgym
Jim B wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:23 am
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:11 am
I shall repeat again for the benefit of Lloyd, democracy is always worth it.
Alan
Our democratic system is broken and not fit for purpose; thats the top and bottom of it.
I would suggest watching "The Great Hack" on Netflix which shows how flawed the referendum was.
As I keep informing you the referendum had no legal status and was only advisory. The government's position was to weigh up the pro's and con's of the result and then make a decision on what is best for the UK; that's how our representative democracy is supposed to work, unfortunately every action taken to date has been to save the Conservative party and not what's best for the people.
Jim
Jim it was made very clear that the British people were given the choice. I don’t recall ANY. Remained complaining that it wasn’t binding before the results came in. I’ve no doubt whatsoever they would be singing a different tune if the vote had been different. Irrespective of how our system is, we live in a democracy, good or bad.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:41 am
by Jimgward
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:51 am
by Jim B
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:34 am
Jim B wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:23 am
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:11 am
I shall repeat again for the benefit of Lloyd, democracy is always worth it.
Alan
Our democratic system is broken and not fit for purpose; thats the top and bottom of it.
I would suggest watching "The Great Hack" on Netflix which shows how flawed the referendum was.
As I keep informing you the referendum had no legal status and was only advisory. The government's position was to weigh up the pro's and con's of the result and then make a decision on what is best for the UK; that's how our representative democracy is supposed to work, unfortunately every action taken to date has been to save the Conservative party and not what's best for the people.
Jim
Jim it was made very clear that the British people were given the choice. I don’t recall ANY. Remained complaining that it wasn’t binding before the results came in. I’ve no doubt whatsoever they would be singing a different tune if the vote had been different. Irrespective of how our system is, we live in a democracy, good or bad.
Alan
We do not live in a democracy, you have to realise that.
Remember BoatyMacboatface or when the people in Lancashire voted to ban fracking and the government overturned the decision.
It appears democracy only matters if it agreed with your point of view.
As Mark Twain quoted, "If voting made a difference they wouldn't let us do it"
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:35 pm
by Jimgym
Jim we are a democratic country. Which is why it irritates me when Remainers conveniently ignore that fact. Comparing the very clear referendum to anything else is frankly pointless. The people voted out, like it or not. Respect that decision. Democracy matters very much to me whatever the decisions are, something a minority of Remainers would do very well to remember.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:42 pm
by Jim B
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:35 pm
Jim we are a democratic country. Which is why it irritates me when Remainers conveniently ignore that fact. Comparing the very clear referendum to anything else is frankly pointless. The people voted out, like it or not. Respect that decision. Democracy matters very much to me whatever the decisions are, something a minority of Remainers would do very well to remember.
Alan
I think we're going round in circles here; you believe the referendum was legally binding even though I've posted numerous links proving that referendums in the UK are only advisory. Democracy is important to me but I don't accept that lying and cheating is acceptable in the Democratic Process whereas it appears it is to many leavers in as much the end justifies the means.
The Supreme Court returned a judgement that as the Referendum was only advisory they couldn't declare it void and because it is only advisory they cannot order it to be re_run.
At the end of the day it depends on what sort of Democratic System you're prepared to accept.
Below is a link confirm what I write.
Jim
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44856992
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:39 pm
by Firefly
Lloyd
Again the article you quote is full of 'potential, could' etc. No-one knows yet how things will pan out.
As for 'dear old Jackie' a T shirt I saw recently said it all, " thinking that I'm just an old lady was your first mistake".
Jackie
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:15 pm
by Jimgym
Jim B wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:42 pm
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:35 pm
Jim we are a democratic country. Which is why it irritates me when Remainers conveniently ignore that fact. Comparing the very clear referendum to anything else is frankly pointless. The people voted out, like it or not. Respect that decision. Democracy matters very much to me whatever the decisions are, something a minority of Remainers would do very well to remember.
Alan
I think we're going round in circles here; you believe the referendum was legally binding even though I've posted numerous links proving that referendums in the UK are only advisory. Democracy is important to me but I don't accept that lying and cheating is acceptable in the Democratic Process whereas it appears it is to many leavers in as much the end justifies the means.
The Supreme Court returned a judgement that as the Referendum was only advisory they couldn't declare it void and because it is only advisory they cannot order it to be re_run.
At the end of the day it depends on what sort of Democratic System you're prepared to accept.
Below is a link confirm what I write.
Jim
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44856992
Jim, I am confused as to who you keep telling me the referendum was advisory. I am well aware of that fact, as I have previously told you. I have also said that Britain was offered it as a choice to either stay or leave. I don't have time to find the exact quote from Cameron. As to lies, BOTH sides we and are culpable there. I am prepared to accept a system whereby the votes of the majority are implanted in an election, referendum, anything. However it seems some people only want it when it suites them. Thankfully I am not in that category.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:43 pm
by Jimgym
The vote was Remain or leave. Very simple. Where is your proof that leave voters imagined anything?
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:19 pm
by Jimgym
Les Bean wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:48 pm
"I believe" does not state fact requiring proof.Nor could you ever prove what is in people's minds
Then why use it as the basis of your argument?
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:24 pm
by Jimgym
Les Bean wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:05 pm
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:43 pm
The vote was Remain or leave. Very simple. Where is your proof that leave voters imagined anything?
I really hope they were imagining something,rather than just on a whim,or coin toss
Try asking them rather than making things up to suit your point of view. Always better to do that rather than ascribe things to people without checking first.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:47 pm
by Jim B
Alan
I agree a majority advised the government they wished to leave the EU but that's all it was, advice. If I asked you for advice it would then be up to me to decide whether to act on it or not. This advice of referendum was then put before parliament for the members to decide whether to act on the advice provided. A majority of MPs decided not to accept the advice given as they feel it will be detrimental to the good of the country and that's the position we find ourselves in; that is representative democracy which is our system. On the issue of leaving the EU you want to use direct democracy; you can't change horses half way because the existing system doesn't provide what you want.
Jim
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:01 pm
by Jimgward
Democracy isnt a one-vote, final decision. That’s why parliament often takes votes, passes to the Lord’s, they amend, send back to commons, then vote on the amended law. NEVER, pass a law, put it into practice and never every change it
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:27 pm
by Jimgym
Jimgward wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:01 pm
Democracy isnt a one-vote, final decision. That’s why parliament often takes votes, passes to the Lord’s, they amend, send back to commons, then vote on the amended law. NEVER, pass a law, put it into practice and never every change it
*sigh* Yet again, we were offered a vote, it was made very very clear that it would be up to the voters to stay or leave. Why do Remainers continue to ignore this incredibly simple fact? It had NOTHING to do with any other vote. Remainers lecturing on democracy whilst trying to deny others the very same thing is quite frankly laughable.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:33 pm
by Jimgym
Jim B wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:47 pm
Alan
I agree a majority advised the government they wished to leave the EU but that's all it was, advice. If I asked you for advice it would then be up to me to decide whether to act on it or not. This advice of referendum was then put before parliament for the members to decide whether to act on the advice provided. A majority of MPs decided not to accept the advice given as they feel it will be detrimental to the good of the country and that's the position we find ourselves in; that is representative democracy which is our system. On the issue of leaving the EU you want to use direct democracy; you can't change horses half way because the existing system doesn't provide what you want.
Jim
Jim I’m not going to continue to repeat myself. You obviously do not want to accept the result of a democratic vote. Repeating yourself won’t change anything. It saddens me that people are so opposed to democracy.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:36 pm
by Jimgym
Les Bean wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:13 pm
Jimgward wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:01 pm
Democracy isnt a one-vote, final decision. That’s why parliament often takes votes, passes to the Lord’s, they amend, send back to commons, then vote on the amended law. NEVER, pass a law, put it into practice and never every change it
Erm.... exactly, but that is what Boris is trying to do bypushing forward his final decision and avoiding a parliamentary vote
He is pushing what the majority of those who voted wanted. To leave the EU.
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:02 pm
by Jim B
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:33 pm
Jim B wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:47 pm
Alan
I agree a majority advised the government they wished to leave the EU but that's all it was, advice. If I asked you for advice it would then be up to me to decide whether to act on it or not. This advice of referendum was then put before parliament for the members to decide whether to act on the advice provided. A majority of MPs decided not to accept the advice given as they feel it will be detrimental to the good of the country and that's the position we find ourselves in; that is representative democracy which is our system. On the issue of leaving the EU you want to use direct democracy; you can't change horses half way because the existing system doesn't provide what you want.
Jim
Jim I’m not going to continue to repeat myself. You obviously do not want to accept the result of a democratic vote. Repeating yourself won’t change anything. It saddens me that people are so opposed to democracy.
Alan it saddens me that many highly intelligent people don't appear to understand how the British "Democratic System" works.
Jim
Re: Light at the end of Boris' dark tunnel?
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:10 pm
by Jimgym
Jim B wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:02 pm
Jimgym wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:33 pm
Jim B wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:47 pm
Alan
I agree a majority advised the government they wished to leave the EU but that's all it was, advice. If I asked you for advice it would then be up to me to decide whether to act on it or not. This advice of referendum was then put before parliament for the members to decide whether to act on the advice provided. A majority of MPs decided not to accept the advice given as they feel it will be detrimental to the good of the country and that's the position we find ourselves in; that is representative democracy which is our system. On the issue of leaving the EU you want to use direct democracy; you can't change horses half way because the existing system doesn't provide what you want.
Jim
Jim I’m not going to continue to repeat myself. You obviously do not want to accept the result of a democratic vote. Repeating yourself won’t change anything. It saddens me that people are so opposed to democracy.
Alan it saddens me that many highly intelligent people don't appear to understand how the British "Democratic System" works.
Jim
Oh I know Jim, apparently leave doesn’t actually mean that for some “R” voters........
