Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

outasite wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:20 pm How about having a second referendum.........but with exactly the same wording.....Leave or Remain. We have all had over 3 years of pantomime, quarreling, breaking of Parliamentary precedence, MPs quitting membership of parties on whose manifests they were elected on. And if the majority is Leave, yet again, will the remainers accept it with good grace. And will those who do not bother to vote then keep the opinions to themselves. I would think if it was remain, the result would be accepted, though not without much grumbling from Leave voters. And much noisy celebration through the night from the general direction of Ha Potami.
Have another referendum, and if the vote is to Remain, then let's ignore it. Sounds fair to me!!
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Jim B wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:19 pm Alan
The vote came on the back of seven years of austerity by David Cameron's government, to many it was just a protest vote against that.

But the point is now the situation is just going round in circles and we have a Mexican Standoff. We can't just keep going infinitum, we've had a general election which solved nothing and countless manouverings by both sides and we are no closer to a decision. Do we keep doing what we're doing and try to wear each other down while both sides become more entrenched or now have a referendum on whether to remain or accept Blojo' s deal or even no deal.
Like it or not most Remainers will not accept the result because righthly or wrongly they believe it was a stitch up. Now the vast majority of the electorate know what the result of Brexit will mean for the country and themselves and as said earlier the only way out of this impasse is to have another referendum or we'll still be arguing over Brexit this time next year.


Jim
It's irrelevant when the vote came, people were given the information and they voted. The result needs to be implemented, there should be no argument with that. Many politicians went on record at the time to say just that, yet they are now reneging. Most remainers won't accept it yet expect those who voted leave to agree to a second referendum.Why on earth should we? We had one, Remainers thought they were going to win and are still coming to terms with the fact they badly misjudged things. I don't always like the result of democracy but I have to accept it, along with everyone else.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....
Exactly. Plus even if the argument that Cameron mentioned the common market was a sound argument -which I don´t think it is- it would still not justify pulling out of the customs union. If I was British I´d tear my hair in desperation because nobody seems to care about those details.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:43 am
Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325
So, even though the Prime Minister informed the country what a leave vote would mean in regards to the single market, that, according to you isn't good enough?
No. It would only have been good enough it this was stated on the ballot paper. Plus there would have to be stated that it meant leaving the customs union as well.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B »

Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:40 pm
Jim B wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:19 pm Alan
The vote came on the back of seven years of austerity by David Cameron's government, to many it was just a protest vote against that.

But the point is now the situation is just going round in circles and we have a Mexican Standoff. We can't just keep going infinitum, we've had a general election which solved nothing and countless manouverings by both sides and we are no closer to a decision. Do we keep doing what we're doing and try to wear each other down while both sides become more entrenched or now have a referendum on whether to remain or accept Blojo' s deal or even no deal.
Like it or not most Remainers will not accept the result because righthly or wrongly they believe it was a stitch up. Now the vast majority of the electorate know what the result of Brexit will mean for the country and themselves and as said earlier the only way out of this impasse is to have another referendum or we'll still be arguing over Brexit this time next year.


Jim
It's irrelevant when the vote came, people were given the information and they voted. The result needs to be implemented, there should be no argument with that. Many politicians went on record at the time to say just that, yet they are now reneging. Most remainers won't accept it yet expect those who voted leave to agree to a second referendum.Why on earth should we? We had one, Remainers thought they were going to win and are still coming to terms with the fact they badly misjudged things. I don't always like the result of democracy but I have to accept it, along with everyone else.
I disagree Alan, the timing of the referendum was crucial; the Tories took a pasting in the following General Election when May lost her massive majority. If Brexit was the B all and end all for the people they would have followed on by supporting the Tories or UKIP but they didnt; May lost her majority and UKIP all but disappeared from the political scene, many people used their vote in the referendum to vote against austerity and then did it again in the GE.
You are right in that Remain badly misjudged things but most feel they were stitched up by lies and fraud and that's why they refuse to accept the result.
As said we can argue these points till we're blue in the face but if we want to move on we have to grasp the nettle.
As for Project Fear, jobs are being lost, factories are closing, value of the pound about 12% down and cost of living (according to my Brexit Sister) is going up weekly so it's turning out to be prophetic.

Jim
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

jeba wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:22 pm
Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:43 am
Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325
So, even though the Prime Minister informed the country what a leave vote would mean in regards to the single market, that, according to you isn't good enough?
No. It would only have been good enough it this was stated on the ballot paper. Plus there would have to be stated that it meant leaving the customs union as well.
No, it was good enough for the Prime Minister, it was good enough when Remain thoughts they were going to win. Goalposts are not there to be constantly moved. There was a vote, Leave won, can we for goodness sake put it to bed!
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Jim B wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:23 pm
Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:40 pm
Jim B wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:19 pm Alan
The vote came on the back of seven years of austerity by David Cameron's government, to many it was just a protest vote against that.

But the point is now the situation is just going round in circles and we have a Mexican Standoff. We can't just keep going infinitum, we've had a general election which solved nothing and countless manouverings by both sides and we are no closer to a decision. Do we keep doing what we're doing and try to wear each other down while both sides become more entrenched or now have a referendum on whether to remain or accept Blojo' s deal or even no deal.
Like it or not most Remainers will not accept the result because righthly or wrongly they believe it was a stitch up. Now the vast majority of the electorate know what the result of Brexit will mean for the country and themselves and as said earlier the only way out of this impasse is to have another referendum or we'll still be arguing over Brexit this time next year.


Jim
It's irrelevant when the vote came, people were given the information and they voted. The result needs to be implemented, there should be no argument with that. Many politicians went on record at the time to say just that, yet they are now reneging. Most remainers won't accept it yet expect those who voted leave to agree to a second referendum.Why on earth should we? We had one, Remainers thought they were going to win and are still coming to terms with the fact they badly misjudged things. I don't always like the result of democracy but I have to accept it, along with everyone else.
I disagree Alan, the timing of the referendum was crucial; the Tories took a pasting in the following General Election when May lost her massive majority. If Brexit was the B all and end all for the people they would have followed on by supporting the Tories or UKIP but they didnt; May lost her majority and UKIP all but disappeared from the political scene, many people used their vote in the referendum to vote against austerity and then did it again in the GE.
You are right in that Remain badly misjudged things but most feel they were stitched up by lies and fraud and that's why they refuse to accept the result.
As said we can argue these points till we're blue in the face but if we want to move on we have to grasp the nettle.
As for Project Fear, jobs are being lost, factories are closing, value of the pound about 12% down and cost of living (according to my Brexit Sister) is going up weekly so it's turning out to be prophetic.

Jim
Jim, I disagree and this discussion would not be taking place if Remain had won. I can post many Project Fear prophesies that were blatant lies, and I think we all know Project Fear was real, not some figment of Leave voters imagination.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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jeba wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:17 pm
Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....
Exactly. Plus even if the argument that Cameron mentioned the common market was a sound argument -which I don´t think it is- it would still not justify pulling out of the customs union. If I was British I´d tear my hair in desperation because nobody seems to care about those details.
How do you know people don't care? Stop generalising. Accept that the British people voted to leave the EU, dress it up any way you wish, complain that David Cameron didn't visit each household and explain everything in great detail, but accept that those people voted to leave. What is making many treat their hair out is people not accepting how and why they voted, and people trying to block the conclusion of that vote. If you wish to tear your hair out, do it over something really important, like the implementation of democracy.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:24 pm
jeba wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:22 pm
Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:43 am

So, even though the Prime Minister informed the country what a leave vote would mean in regards to the single market, that, according to you isn't good enough?
No. It would only have been good enough it this was stated on the ballot paper. Plus there would have to be stated that it meant leaving the customs union as well.
No, it was good enough for the Prime Minister, it was good enough when Remain thoughts they were going to win. Goalposts are not there to be constantly moved. There was a vote, Leave won, can we for goodness sake put it to bed!
There was a vote to leave the EU, not the common market nor the customs union. At least not on the ballot papers I´ve seen on the internet. And whether Cameron deemed his statement good enough or not is irrelevant because the ballot paper counts - not a politician´s view.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:34 pm
jeba wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:17 pm
Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....
Exactly. Plus even if the argument that Cameron mentioned the common market was a sound argument -which I don´t think it is- it would still not justify pulling out of the customs union. If I was British I´d tear my hair in desperation because nobody seems to care about those details.
How do you know people don't care? Stop generalising. Accept that the British people voted to leave the EU, dress it up any way you wish, complain that David Cameron didn't visit each household and explain everything in great detail, but accept that those people voted to leave. What is making many treat their hair out is people not accepting how and why they voted, and people trying to block the conclusion of that vote. If you wish to tear your hair out, do it over something really important, like the implementation of democracy.
I never claimed that nobody cared. But I´d claim that not everybody knew what Cameron said or that everybody knew what he was talking about. Do you really believe that everybody knows the difference between the EU, the common market and the customs union - let alone the implications of leaving them? That´s one of the major reasons why parliament should decide complicated matters and why I´m glad that we don´t have national referenda in Germany.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Everyone knows that 3-years later, even the swing from older to younger voters, even with the same number voting, then remain would win - even if nobody changed their minds. So, we have a country, ruled by the opinion of retired people whose lives will be affected the least, deciding the future of the rest of the working population. Nonsense. I want a deal voted on, then put to the people. The option is the deal, or remain. It's the only thing that will appease the MAJORITY of the country.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:00 pm Everyone knows that 3-years later, even the swing from older to younger voters, even with the same number voting, then remain would win - even if nobody changed their minds. So, we have a country, ruled by the opinion of retired people whose lives will be affected the least, deciding the future of the rest of the working population. Nonsense. I want a deal voted on, then put to the people. The option is the deal, or remain. It's the only thing that will appease the MAJORITY of the country.
Sure thing Jim. Here’s a refreshing and slightly unusual idea. How about implementing the referendum result instead of offending and belittling those who voted.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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jeba wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:56 pm
Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:34 pm
jeba wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:17 pm

Exactly. Plus even if the argument that Cameron mentioned the common market was a sound argument -which I don´t think it is- it would still not justify pulling out of the customs union. If I was British I´d tear my hair in desperation because nobody seems to care about those details.
How do you know people don't care? Stop generalising. Accept that the British people voted to leave the EU, dress it up any way you wish, complain that David Cameron didn't visit each household and explain everything in great detail, but accept that those people voted to leave. What is making many treat their hair out is people not accepting how and why they voted, and people trying to block the conclusion of that vote. If you wish to tear your hair out, do it over something really important, like the implementation of democracy.
I never claimed that nobody cared. But I´d claim that not everybody knew what Cameron said or that everybody knew what he was talking about. Do you really believe that everybody knows the difference between the EU, the common market and the customs union - let alone the implications of leaving them? That´s one of the major reasons why parliament should decide complicated matters and why I´m glad that we don´t have national referenda in Germany.
So when you said people don't seem to care, you didn't actually mean that? Or did you? I'm slightly confused as you seem to be saying one thing then another. You claimed earlier that British people weren't voting to leave or remain in the single market, yet when I proved that point wrong (again) you now say that the PM telling the country the implications of a vote to leave wasn't good enough. Despite many Remainers stating on here that Leave voters didn't realise what they were voting for. Again, you can't have it both ways. Do you really believe everyone knew the implications of staying IN the EU? I for one am glad that Britain is allowed to decide its own future. All this moaning and complaining about a vote, and all because it didn't go the way everyone expected. I don't recall anyone saying we shouldn't have one. I do however remember British politicians, those members of Parliament who you think should decide matters, stating quite categorically that they would abide but the wishes of the voters. What Germany has and does is up to them, I wouldn't presume to concern myself with their matters.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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jeba wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:48 pm
Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:24 pm
jeba wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:22 pm

No. It would only have been good enough it this was stated on the ballot paper. Plus there would have to be stated that it meant leaving the customs union as well.
No, it was good enough for the Prime Minister, it was good enough when Remain thoughts they were going to win. Goalposts are not there to be constantly moved. There was a vote, Leave won, can we for goodness sake put it to bed!
There was a vote to leave the EU, not the common market nor the customs union. At least not on the ballot papers I´ve seen on the internet. And whether Cameron deemed his statement good enough or not is irrelevant because the ballot paper counts - not a politician´s view.
The vote to leave was to leave the EU and therefore the single market. I have offered you the proof that this was told to the country, yet for some reason known only to you, that isn't good enough. People were informed of this fact, as I have previously said. Accept it or not, entirely your choice, it won't however change the facts.
Should we have everything placed on the ballot papers, every single reason for leave and remain. Had that happened I suspect there would still be some people who would find another reason to complain.
You are correct, it is the ballot paper that counts, and over 17 million of them were to leave the EU and the single market.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:53 pm
Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:00 pm Everyone knows that 3-years later, even the swing from older to younger voters, even with the same number voting, then remain would win - even if nobody changed their minds. So, we have a country, ruled by the opinion of retired people whose lives will be affected the least, deciding the future of the rest of the working population. Nonsense. I want a deal voted on, then put to the people. The option is the deal, or remain. It's the only thing that will appease the MAJORITY of the country.
Sure thing Jim. Here’s a refreshing and slightly unusual idea. How about implementing the referendum result instead of offending and belittling those who voted.
I would, if the deal didn’t disadvantage me and millions like me.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Jimgym. You are wrong we were told we would leave the single market. I’ve given you the link to proof. You reciprocate.

Also, everyone did know the implications of staying. It would be the status quo. All the rubbish about European armies, admitting Turkey and so on were lies to spur the Little Britains and the racists and anti-immigration ones.

also, most of the country did not want a referendum. This was purely to appease the ERG
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:00 pm
So when you said people don't seem to care, you didn't actually mean that? Or did you? I'm slightly confused as you seem to be saying one thing then another.
When I wrote that people don´t seem to care I wasn´t referring to the referendum itself but to the subsequent discussion. At the time of the referendum I think even fewer people knew the implications of being a member of the EU /common market / customs union. Even now I´m under the impression that only a minority does. Again - that´s a major reason why there should be no referenda (and why the referendum wasn´t legally binding).
Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:00 pm You claimed earlier that British people weren't voting to leave or remain in the single market, yet when I proved that point wrong (again) you now say that the PM telling the country the implications of a vote to leave wasn't good enough. Despite many Remainers stating on here that Leave voters didn't realise what they were voting for. Again, you can't have it both ways. Do you really believe everyone knew the implications of staying IN the EU? I for one am glad that Britain is allowed to decide its own future. All this moaning and complaining about a vote, and all because it didn't go the way everyone expected. I don't recall anyone saying we shouldn't have one. I do however remember British politicians, those members of Parliament who you think should decide matters, stating quite categorically that they would abide but the wishes of the voters. What Germany has and does is up to them, I wouldn't presume to concern myself with their matters.
No, you haven´t proven my point wrong. Repeating your argument isn´t making it any more correct. Cameron mentioning on TV that leaving the EU would mean leaving the common market as well isn´t the same as properly educating voters and having it voted on. And even you haven´t claimed that leaving the customs union was largely discussed. And even if it had been - what do you think is the percentage of voters who could tell the differences and implications?


Personally (as I´m not British) I don´t really care about Brexit other than that it affected the value of that part of my retirement savings which is invested in the UK (and that I feel sorry for those British expats who have to suffer the consequences). That doesn´t mean I feel that I shouldn´t concern myself with that matter. I myself am not a big fan of the EU and wouldn´t really mind Germany leaving it - but never the customs union and the common market. And my guess is chances are that there will be at least a few percent of voters who voted "leave" but had similiar feelings about the common market and the customs union. Given how close the result of the referendum was there is no justification to claim that a majority was supporting a no deal Brexit. Or are you claiming that not more than 2% would have voted for leaving the EU while staying in the customs union and / or the common market if they had had a choice? If so, on what basis?
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Boris Johnson's Brexit plan would leave everyone in the UK £2,000 worse off, study finds
Prime minister's proposal worse for economy than Theresa May's deal, analysis says


Boris Johnson's Brexit plan would leave knock up to £50bn off the economy and leave everyone in the UK £2,000 worse off, new analysis has found.
Academics at King's College London said the plan that is the subject of intense negotiations between UK and officials would be worse for the UK economy than Theresa May's deal.
The current proposal being discussed in Brussels would hit public finances by up to £49bn, the study found, with even that best-case scenario resulting in a £16bn fall in GDP.
Mr Johnson's plan would do more harm to the economy than Ms May's, the researchers said, because it would guarantee the UK will not remain in a customs union with the EU. The prime minister is also reported to want to scrap "level playing field" standards that ensure fair competition within the UK.
Academic think-tank The UK in a Changing Europe found that Mr Johnson's proposal would see national income per capita drop to 6.4 per cent lower than it would be by staying in the EU - the equivalent of £2,000 per person in the UK
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:05 pm Jimgym. You are wrong we were told we would leave the single market. I’ve given you the link to proof. You reciprocate.
How am I wrong when I have been saying the exact same thing to Jeba? I have posted links where David Cameron has said a vote to leave is a vote to leave the single market?
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

jeba wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:31 pm
Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:00 pm
So when you said people don't seem to care, you didn't actually mean that? Or did you? I'm slightly confused as you seem to be saying one thing then another.
When I wrote that people don´t seem to care I wasn´t referring to the referendum itself but to the subsequent discussion. At the time of the referendum I think even fewer people knew the implications of being a member of the EU /common market / customs union. Even now I´m under the impression that only a minority does. Again - that´s a major reason why there should be no referenda (and why the referendum wasn´t legally binding).
Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:00 pm You claimed earlier that British people weren't voting to leave or remain in the single market, yet when I proved that point wrong (again) you now say that the PM telling the country the implications of a vote to leave wasn't good enough. Despite many Remainers stating on here that Leave voters didn't realise what they were voting for. Again, you can't have it both ways. Do you really believe everyone knew the implications of staying IN the EU? I for one am glad that Britain is allowed to decide its own future. All this moaning and complaining about a vote, and all because it didn't go the way everyone expected. I don't recall anyone saying we shouldn't have one. I do however remember British politicians, those members of Parliament who you think should decide matters, stating quite categorically that they would abide but the wishes of the voters. What Germany has and does is up to them, I wouldn't presume to concern myself with their matters.
No, you haven´t proven my point wrong. Repeating your argument isn´t making it any more correct. Cameron mentioning on TV that leaving the EU would mean leaving the common market as well isn´t the same as properly educating voters and having it voted on. And even you haven´t claimed that leaving the customs union was largely discussed. And even if it had been - what do you think is the percentage of voters who could tell the differences and implications?


Personally (as I´m not British) I don´t really care about Brexit other than that it affected the value of that part of my retirement savings which is invested in the UK (and that I feel sorry for those British expats who have to suffer the consequences). That doesn´t mean I feel that I shouldn´t concern myself with that matter. I myself am not a big fan of the EU and wouldn´t really mind Germany leaving it - but never the customs union and the common market. And my guess is chances are that there will be at least a few percent of voters who voted "leave" but had similiar feelings about the common market and the customs union. Given how close the result of the referendum was there is no justification to claim that a majority was supporting a no deal Brexit. Or are you claiming that not more than 2% would have voted for leaving the EU while staying in the customs union and / or the common market if they had had a choice? If so, on what basis?
Your definition of educating the voters can be as different as many others. Is there a standard to which we should adhere? I've no idea on the percentages, and I suspect nobody really knows, beyond a vague guess. I'm not making any claims on how people might vote, I leave that to pollsters. Saying as you have*( edit) on more than one occasion, incorrectly I might add, Britons were told a vote to leave was to leave the single market. It was put out there to the British public. What they chose to do with that information is up to them, as it is in every single election or vote. Guessing, as you say is just that, a ballot paper is proof of people's intentions, and for me that carries far more weight that someone surmising and offering guesses.
Last edited by Jimgym on Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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