Should 16yr olds have the vote?

[kingfisher]

An afterthough to the above- another novel idea which has caught the imagination of the young particularly (although seemingly espoused by the EU- naturally- and used successfully in the Greece and Ireland referenda), is that if at first the vote goes the “wrong” way, then try again by moving the goalposts, or increasing the width, until the “correct” result is achieved. This is, aside from anything else, a manifestation of immaturity, which I believe older people would not tend to stoop to so quickly.

[Royal]

I am not particularly concerned about whether the voting age should be reduced to 16, although in principle, I think 16 is too young. If you are able to vote at 16, then you should be able to stand for election to Parliament at 16. Does anyone really believe, however, that 16 year olds (generally speaking) are able to shoulder such responsibility? Whilst I generally agree that if a 16 year old is in full time work and consequently paying tax, they should be able to vote, I would equally maintain that if in full time education, they should not be given that right. Goodness knows how you would be able to distinguish between working and not working at 16 though.

What is clear, is that the whole subject of legal ages needs to be reviewed rather than just tinker at the edges like just the voting age. You can vote in Scotland for local elections, for the Sottish Parliament and in referendums at age 16 but you can't buy alcohol or tobacco until you are age 18. Does that make any sense?

Currently, the main legal ages in the UK are:

16 - the legal age for consenting to sex, for leaving school and for starting full time paid work.

17 - the legal age for driving a car.

18 the legal age for voting, for purchasing/drinking alcohol/tobacco products and for getting married without parental consent, for standing for Parliament and for being sent to war.

The bottom line is when does a child become legally recognised as an adult. Until 1970 it was at age 21, then reduced to 18. I happen to think that is about right.

[Lynsab]

Young people have been marginalised in public policy in recent years and votes at 16 would help address this. They have borne the brunt of austerity measures, such as increased university tuition fees and the closure of youth centres, introduced since the onset of the global financial crisis. Despite this, research has demonstrated that young people are not apathetic – they are interested in “politics”, broadly defined, have their own views and engage in ways they feel are appropriate to their everyday lives. However, whilst alternative forms of democratic engagement, such as consumer politics, community campaigns, and the use of online technology are very important modes of political participation, the disengagement of significant numbers of young people from formal politics has very negative consequences for representative British democracy that must be tackled.

The likelihood of votes at 16 is increasing. In 2010, the Liberal Democrats made clear their commitment to this policy in their general manifesto and Labour leader Ed Miliband announced his support last year in his party conference speech in Brighton. The inclusion of 16 and 17-year-olds in the referendum on Scotland’s independence will add to this pressure. The referendum is offering the next generation of Scottish workers, parents, educators, and even political leaders, the chance to have an impact on a decision which will shape their future. It’s time that more young people across the UK have the chance to do this in all elections. An inclusive conception of citizenship demands that the viewpoints of young people must be heard. If the political establishment are serious about listening to their views then across the political spectrum they should commit to lowering the voting age to 16.

Preventing people from voting until they are 18 means that many citizens, in practice, do not get a chance to vote in general elections until they are well into their 20s.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... d-get-vote

[Jimgward]

I believe the current voting age is correct.
The fact that young people are more pro-remain only demonstrates that they are more easily taken in by politicians, the “media”, the “experts”, and all the other powerful establishment forces. This is hardly surprising, since most kids have been immersed for their short lives in a media-dominated world, and not reality. Let’s face it, the “establishment” with "Project Fear" threw all they could get their hands on at the Leave position, backed by a great deal of money- and still lost! No amount of bull- even wheeling out Obama and other “giants” like elder statesmen Blair and Major could alter the minds of those who based their decision on a lifetime of first hand experience and the wisdom of age. This latter quality was respected in human society for about a million years up until very recently, which is probably why the human race is still here to vote.

What a load of biased bull...

Maybe, refusing votes to the senile would be a better idea.

[Cogs123]

Excellent post Lynsab.

[kingfisher]

Jimgward- judging from your reaction to my earlier post, I believe I got a bullseye with my "bull"!

[smudger]

Not sure how votes at 16 would address the problem of increased university fees given that most students entering university are 18, not 16.

"Research has demonstrated......" .....links to this statement??

"The disengagement of significant numbers of young people from formal politics has very negative consequences for representative British democracy that must be tackled" Wow, how exactly? Anylinks to this massive assumption??

"The likelihood of votes at 16 is increasing..... Lib Dems.....Ed Milliband...... " Hmm, that would be the LibDems with virtually no seats in Parliament , and errmmm, Ed Milliband - the bloke that went to Russell Brands house to let him interview him, had a massive, totally useless, ridiculously costly stone sculpture erected, and errrmmm oh yes, still went on to lose the election???

"And the inclusion of 16 and 17 years olds in the referendum on Scotlands independence will add to this pressure, ....errmm what referendum would that be and why?? Evidence?

"An inclusive conception of citizenship demands that the viewpoints of young people must be heard. If the political establishment are serious about listening to their views then across the political spectrum they should commit to lowering the voting age to 16." - teacher twaddle if ever I heard it! Whose 'inclusive conception of citizenship' exactly???
And how exactly does that relate to lowering the voting age? What's the connection? Listening to young people has no relation whatsoever to lowering the voting age.

Sorry, this has to be the craziest justification I ever heard for lowering the voting age.

Aaahhhhh, of course, the New Statesman. The Socialist bible of teacher unions. Say no more. Yet more cut n pastes. Originality would have far more impact.

[bromerzz]

Young people have been marginalised in public policy in recent years and votes at 16 would help address this. They have borne the brunt of austerity measures, such as increased university tuition fees and the closure of youth centres, introduced since the onset of the global financial crisis. Despite this, research has demonstrated that young people are not apathetic – they are interested in “politics”, broadly defined, have their own views and engage in ways they feel are appropriate to their everyday lives. However, whilst alternative forms of democratic engagement, such as consumer politics, community campaigns, and the use of online technology are very important modes of political participation, the disengagement of significant numbers of young people from formal politics has very negative consequences for representative British democracy that must be tackled.

The likelihood of votes at 16 is increasing. In 2010, the Liberal Democrats made clear their commitment to this policy in their general manifesto and Labour leader Ed Miliband announced his support last year in his party conference speech in Brighton. The inclusion of 16 and 17-year-olds in the referendum on Scotland’s independence will add to this pressure. The referendum is offering the next generation of Scottish workers, parents, educators, and even political leaders, the chance to have an impact on a decision which will shape their future. It’s time that more young people across the UK have the chance to do this in all elections. An inclusive conception of citizenship demands that the viewpoints of young people must be heard. If the political establishment are serious about listening to their views then across the political spectrum they

Preventing people from voting until they are 18 means that many citizens, in practice, do not get a chance to vote in general elections until they are well into their 20s.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... d-get-vote

CODSWALLOP - Is this an extract from the script of the next Harry Potter Film?

[Lynsab]

The London School of Economics, that other Harry Potter film set, feels they should get to vote too...

So to the electoral reform society and so many more....I won't list as some get a bit fidgety with links...

Nevertheless they said similar things about women having the vote too and then only to women over 30 ...in fact they said at the time it was because women were inferior to men....that's codswallop too.

Before the 1970's the legal voting age was 21 in Europe, it's now 18, things change.

I’m personally very much in favour of lowering the voting age to 16, and I don’t think we should consider people under 16 as being ‘less capable’ of voting. The level of knowledge a citizen now has is very subjective, but I think that as technology and education advances, the amount of knowledge available to 16-year-olds advances.

Today’s 16-year-olds have access to 10 times, or in some cases 100 times, as much information as their parents did at this age, so I think they can potentially have the civic knowledge they need to know what parties to vote for. Now, if they have the mental ability to take that knowledge and make such an important decision about their lives, this is a totally subjective thing and in a democracy I don’t think you can dismiss such important matters.

[kingfisher]

The average 16 year old may in some cases have quite a lot of information and knowledge, but I believe that wisdom is necessary to make a mature and balanced choice.

[Jim B]

So you believe wisdom comes with age Kingfisher?

Jim

[Poppy]

I think wisdom comes with experience of life Jim. Of course not everyone is wise but experience of life give the opportunity to be wise.

[Jim B]

And I agree with you Poppy but you can live a life with no experience of life or have one experience of a lifetime dont you think? As for 16 year olds voting, I'm not sure if it's a good idea.

Jim

[kingfisher]

I agree with both Jim and Poppy. However,older people (including me) need to be vigilant against becoming rigid which is not wisdom, but laziness.
I was virtually a communist in my late teens. I joined the marches in London against the Vietnam war. (Tariq Ali etc).. I moderated down to left-wing Labour for the rest of my life in UK, until twelve years ago. I admit I voted for Blair and was delighted when he got in.
However, experience here in Cyprus of the EU- which I started out being neutral about- has now become a considered and strong disenchantment. This was inflamed by the manner which my wife’s case over her title deeds was treated by the ECHR- with utter arrogance and contempt.I have also studied the modus operandi of the EU over the past decade of my retirement.
I would now vote Conservative.
In summary, I have modified my opinions in the light of observation,experience, judgment and the outcomes (of policies). And most importantly- I have done so over a substantial period of time.

[Royal]

...we have previously sent 16 yr olds to fight for our country, have we not?.

No. You have to be 18 before being allowed to go on operations.

Actually, there are very strict rules for adult soldiers working with Army cadets who are under 18 including having to be CRB cleared. This reflects the fact that in the UK the age of majority (when someone is legally classed as an adult) is 18. Clearly anyone under 18 is therefore classed as a child and that is where the rules on adults working with children come into play.

[Poppy]

Hells Bells Lloyd! It certainly comes to something when someone with such strong political views as yourself is going to abstain! Unless of course you have reached that magic 15 years away from the UK?

[Pete G]

In 2015 HMG initiated, with massive cross party support, a measure first proposed by Labour in 2007 that the age until which children should be required by law to remain in some form of education should be raised from 16 to 18.

The logic being that modern life was so complex that children required an extended period of mandatory education before being fully fit to assume their full adult responsibilities, including the amount of self-determination adults enjoy. In addition when the Labour Party proposed this they also announce that they had an informal target of having 80% of young people in further education [as in state dependant and non-contributory] until age 21.

So in exact what way is a decision that requires extending childhood to prepare young people for a life of full adult self reliance and self determination [the 'reward' of attaining majority] and the removal of the adult probation [i.e. the period where you actually have some adult responsibilities, but are unable to exercise your franchise] of the period between 16-18 consistent with lowering the voting age?. Surely the logical response to extending the period at which young people are not required to be self reliant should have the effect of increasing the age of franchise, not reducing it?

Who amongst us were not proto-Marxists at 16? Until we have the life experience of being both a benefactor and contributor to the social largesse handed out, at least. Fortunately most of us [with the obvious exception of Mr, Corbyn and his fans of course, who seem unable to make that particular leap] grow out of it.

Someone more cynical than myself might even suggest that when people such as Mr. Salmond, say that 16-18 year olds should get the vote on specific issues, what they are actually saying is that they wish merely to increase the base of chronically state dependant and therefore economically naïve potential voters so as to be able to push through irresponsible left-wing policies, and anything else where the argument is dependent on emotion rather than logic, or even a basic appreciation of economics.

But I'm sure left wing politicians, with their overriding concerns of 'social justice' wouldn't be so cynically manipulative to the vulnerable merely in the search for personal political influence, would they?

[Jim B]

Kingfisher

Sorry to be pedantic; I read your comments with interest because I was brought up in a Tory household but realised as I reached voting age we didn't have the proverbial pot to you know what in. meanwhile our neighbour, Lord Derby who owned half of Lancashire was getting massive tax breaks off the Tories. My pedantic question is why are coralating the ECHR with the EU as both have nothing to do with each other?

[kingfisher]

Jim B- Thank you for your comment, I was about to post this earlier when a power-cut hit. I too was raised in a Tory household (Father born in India, Army, L/Col by age 35, Mother, S/Major), I was told that I "would vote Conservative" whilst under their roof, so I went off and voted Labour... I think you get the picture!
I nearly posted at the time that I was well aware the ECHR was totally unconnected with the EU and predates it by decades, but felt it would seem pedantic. However, my experience with the ECHR was a huge eye-opener into how Europe "works" (including, and involving, in this case Cyprus), when it wishes an outcome in which political expediencies perhaps over-ride justice. (I did post the whole saga on CL but got only one derisory and irrelevent comment, so felt it was not worth re-heating). What happened in Spain over the Valencia land-grab is another example.
{And incidentally, we didn't have a proverbial "pot" between the six of us!}

[Jim B]

Kingfisher
I do actually recall your post on CL and do sincerely commiserate. When I brought my non EU wife to Cyprus to live we found dealing with Immigration very difficult and it wasn't until Cyprus joined the EU that the the procedure became easier. Fortunately my wife qualifies for a Cypriot passport which we are presently applying for but many in the same position don't. In a similar position where no one can guarantee what will happen would you still be pro Brexit if it means your wife could be asked to leave the country?

Jim