Hot Water Costs with no Solar

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jfn25
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Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by jfn25 »

Hello

We are looking at a rental property which has no solar for the hot water what sort of costs should I expect for the immersion heater to heat the hot water

Thank you
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Dominic
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by Dominic »

When and where (what town) are you renting? The price to heat up a Polemi tank would be more than for a Paphos tank.
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cyprusmax47
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by cyprusmax47 »

Depending how many people are using hot water every day and where the tank for the hot water is situated. If it is within the house there are less
losses, if your place is in villages like Tsada, Polemi, Kathikas etc you will have even more losses in cold nights. Also the distance from the hot water tank to the taps is important if this is very long one.
I guess ( but it is really only a guess) that you have to switch on the coil which is 3 kW at least 1 hour twice a day in Winter to get proper hot water for showers and in the kitchen. This will cost ca 2 times 60 cent per day with the prices from EAC we have at the moment. If you are used to fill a bath than the times are even longer to heat enough water up to high temperature to be mixed with cold water.

Max
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by PaphosAL »

It's also worth bearing in mind that although the immersion heater is rated at 3KW, the switch gear for it is rated at far less on many new builds. It's called developer penny-pinching, using cheaper lower rated switches and timers.

So many such 'new' deveopments end up with NO hot water, until an electrician comes round, and reinstates the HW circuit to how it should have been in the first place, but at considerable cost! Can name and shame, via PM...

My humble advice to the OP is to seek another rental, one that has solar HW, or better still, PV panels. It's insanity in sunny Cyprus to rent a place that doesn't have solar HW as a minimum, surely? It suggests the rest of the place is naff as well...

AL :)
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by Kili01 »

As others have said it makes no sense to live in a property without at least solar heating panels here. The sun’s energy is free, but electricity prices here in Cyprus are expensive.
If you really like the place why not ask your prospective landlord to install the panels before you rent it?

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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by trevnhil »

I too would go along with what Dee has said.. It really would be better to look for a different property..
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by Dominic »

I wouldn't say it makes no sense. While our boiler is being repaired we've had to rely on the immersion heater. At this time of year the solar panels heating the water don't get enough sunlight, in our corner of Polemi. We only have to switch on the immersion for 1/2 - 3/4 hour to get enough piping hot water for three decent showers.

It all depends how long you are renting etc etc, how much rent you are paying, location, that sort of thing.
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by PolemIan »

In our corner of Polemi, about 12 min walk from Dominic, on average we don’t need the immersion heater until late November, and stop using it from about the 3rd week in February- with the odd top up depending on actual weather. Max 1 hour per day in 2 30 min sessions to cater for our diffent time of day shower preferences. For the last week or so, on,y needed for the 30mins in the morning. To be honest given the weather of the last week could have turned it off completely but have a net metering surplus to use up. Sometimes you find it piping hot at night so can have fab hot shower but then the tank fills with very cold water, outside temp drops overnight so you need the boost in the morning. Basically, about an 30 mins to hour a day, for say 60 days of the year at €0.13 per kw. I must confess I thought the elements were 2kw, not 3kw, so let’s say 180kw worst case @ €0.13 per Kw is roughly €23.40 Direct costs for hot water. Bargain.
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by cyprusmax47 »

Hudswell wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:39 am Exactly Dominic, immersion heaters are a necessity, and whilst solar panels are desirable you can manage without, it really depends on the size of the tank and the requirements of the household.


I never ever needed to use immersion heaters the last 31 years here in Cyprus and even when I lived in Italy for 4 years. If your solar system is designed in the right way and a bit oversized it is like that. Many solar thermal systems in CY are NOT installed in the right way. Either they are not facing the Sun the whole day or there are not enough panels for the households demand or the cylinder is too small, or the panels need cleaning....and many times the builder or architect led install the cheap Solar stuff instead of higher quality perhaps imported from Germany. :!: or Australia

At my last house in Polis area I had 4 panels installed together with a 300 l double insulated cylinder situated in the loft. The panels facing South/East. It was plenty enough in Winter to fill up a large jacuzzi in the bathroom beside running the dishwasher also with hot water instead of cold for a 4 person household with 2 girls washing their hair 2x a day.... From May I had to cover 2 panels however not to overhead the system...

Max
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by aphrodite »

cyprusmax47 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:45 pm
I guess ( but it is really only a guess) that you have to switch on the coil which is 3 kW at least 1 hour twice a day in Winter to get proper hot water for showers and in the kitchen. This will cost ca 2 times 60 cent per day with the prices from EAC we have at the moment. If you are used to fill a bath than the times are even longer to heat enough water up to high temperature to be mixed with cold water.

Max
Thank you Max for the information on cost of having the immersion on for one hour. I put it on for an hour in the mornings on days such as today, in order to have a hot shower as my tank doesn't hold onto the heat. I thought the immersion cost much more per hour than 60c.
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by cyprusmax47 »

PolemIan wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:05 am In our corner of Polemi, about 12 min walk from Dominic, on average we don’t need the immersion heater until late November, and stop using it from about the 3rd week in February- with the odd top up depending on actual weather. Max 1 hour per day in 2 30 min sessions to cater for our diffent time of day shower preferences. For the last week or so, on,y needed for the 30mins in the morning. To be honest given the weather of the last week could have turned it off completely but have a net metering surplus to use up. Sometimes you find it piping hot at night so can have fab hot shower but then the tank fills with very cold water, outside temp drops overnight so you need the boost in the morning. Basically, about an 30 mins to hour a day, for say 60 days of the year at €0.13 per kw. I must confess I thought the elements were 2kw, not 3kw, so let’s say 180kw worst case @ €0.13 per Kw is roughly €23.40 Direct costs for hot water. Bargain.
Ian, all the normal elements in Cyprus are 3kw except imported stuff from Germany( which is PV hot water system) which run with an 1 kw coil.
Coils are rated at 220 V but in CY the voltage from EAC is between 243 and 248 volt, which means it uses more electricity.

It would be nice if the kw costs of electricity are 13/c/kw. If you read your last bill it is at the moment 20.3c ( final costs divided by your kw/h.'s used)
But then you realize that your ROI of your net-metering is much more interesting!!

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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by Varky »

Hudswell,
I thought dishwashers took in cold water and have their own dedicated heating elements. Unless by 'dishwasher' you were referring to the human type. ;)
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by cyprusmax47 »

Varky wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:09 am Hudswell,
I thought dishwashers took in cold water and have their own dedicated heating elements. Unless by 'dishwasher' you were referring to the human type. ;)
I , (not Hudswell) connected the dishwasher with the hot water pipe instead of the cold one in order to get pre-heated water with the result that a circle of the dishwasher is not using the normal 2.5 kw when connected with cold water as the coil will be heating only for a view minutes to reach the right temperature for washing and drying the dishes. And yes it was a real Miele dishwasher not the human type... :)

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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by J B »

Austin7 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:18 pm The OP doesn't specify what type of property he intends to rent. It may well be an apartment in a communal block. From my experience the only floor levels to have solar panels (if they are lucky) are the top floor. All lower floor apartments have their cold storage tanks on the roof but their hot water tanks with immersion heaters are sited within the confines of the apartment.
When we bought our first apartment in Tala in 1996, all apartments had solar water heating.
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by ApusApus »

Austin7 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:18 pm The OP doesn't specify what type of property he intends to rent. It may well be an apartment in a communal block. From my experience the only floor levels to have solar panels (if they are lucky) are the top floor. All lower floor apartments have their cold storage tanks on the roof but their hot water tanks with immersion heaters are sited within the confines of the apartment.
Not so, there are several communal blocks on our site where the ground floor flats have their hot water tanks & immersion heaters on the roof!


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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by Varky »

cyprusmax47 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:38 pm I , (not Hudswell) connected the dishwasher with the hot water pipe instead of the cold one in order to get pre-heated water with the result that a circle of the dishwasher is not using the normal 2.5 kw when connected with cold water as the coil will be heating only for a view minutes to reach the right temperature for washing and drying the dishes. And yes it was a real Miele dishwasher not the human type... :)
Max
Never thought of that, although it sounds like a good idea. On slight problem might be that the hot water supply does not have the same pressure as the cold. OK so usually nowadays the hot water has a CP pump to increase pressure but if, for any reason that pump fails there might be a problem. Not that CP pumps failing are a regular problem.
Overall it would solve the problem of what to do with all that surplus hot water generated by the solar panels during summer.
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by cyprusmax47 »

Varky wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:45 pm
cyprusmax47 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:38 pm I , (not Hudswell) connected the dishwasher with the hot water pipe instead of the cold one in order to get pre-heated water with the result that a circle of the dishwasher is not using the normal 2.5 kw when connected with cold water as the coil will be heating only for a view minutes to reach the right temperature for washing and drying the dishes. And yes it was a real Miele dishwasher not the human type... :)
Max
Never thought of that, although it sounds like a good idea. On slight problem might be that the hot water supply does not have the same pressure as the cold. OK so usually nowadays the hot water has a CP pump to increase pressure but if, for any reason that pump fails there might be a problem. Not that CP pumps failing are a regular problem.
Overall it would solve the problem of what to do with all that surplus hot water generated by the solar panels during summer.
Water pressure was never an issue in that house as I connected everything with the freshwater pipe without having a backup storage water tank...
So no pumps at all except a small solar pump for the hot water circuit with a 10 Wp panel. All the water in the house was drinking water.... unlike most of the houses having a backup storage water tank. And by the way I had separate also a solar water central heating with 14 panels on the roof....

Max
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by Devil »

cyprusmax47 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:38 pm I connected the dishwasher with the hot water pipe instead of the cold one in order to get pre-heated water with the result that a circle of the dishwasher is not using the normal 2.5 kw when connected with cold water as the coil will be heating only for a view minutes to reach the right temperature for washing and drying the dishes. And yes it was a real Miele dishwasher not the human type... :)

Max
Sorry, but that is a big no-no. There is a very good reason why washers are designed for cold water. Proteins (e.g., extreme example is egg white) harden in water over about 35-40°C So, if you start a cycle with hot water, you will have more difficulty removing protein and some other organic residues; this is why the pre-rinse is always in cold water and the heating does not start till the wash, even with Miele. Same applies to clothes washers as many organic stains on clothes contain proteins. There are a few washers with both cold and hot water inlets but, again, the hot water valve opens only after the first cold water rinse is evacuated; we had a Bendix clothes washer in the 1950s like that.
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by cyprusmax47 »

Devil wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:48 pm
cyprusmax47 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:38 pm I connected the dishwasher with the hot water pipe instead of the cold one in order to get pre-heated water with the result that a circle of the dishwasher is not using the normal 2.5 kw when connected with cold water as the coil will be heating only for a view minutes to reach the right temperature for washing and drying the dishes. And yes it was a real Miele dishwasher not the human type... :)

Max
Sorry, but that is a big no-no. There is a very good reason why washers are designed for cold water. Proteins (e.g., extreme example is egg white) harden in water over about 35-40°C So, if you start a cycle with hot water, you will have more difficulty removing protein and some other organic residues; this is why the pre-rinse is always in cold water and the heating does not start till the wash, even with Miele. Same applies to clothes washers as many organic stains on clothes contain proteins. There are a few washers with both cold and hot water inlets but, again, the hot water valve opens only after the first cold water rinse is evacuated; we had a Bendix clothes washer in the 1950s like that.
Sorry Devil, but there is a difference between theory and experience. I run the Miele dishwasher for years with perfect results, otherwise I would have changed the connection of hot water back to cold. What of course was a fact, that until the hot water arrived at the dishwasher through the long pipe from the hot cylinder up my loft it was not that hot yet, hence not any problem with the Proteins. This I call experience! Whatever I tried in the past was through trial and error and like this I was always happy not to have followed only the theory you find in books ( or nowadays in the web)

Max
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Re: Hot Water Costs with no Solar

Post by PaphosAL »

Sounds a bit off topic, I know, sorry. But all Class A washing machines now sold in UK have a single cold water feed only. They use an internal electric element to bring the water up to the minimum required 30 degrees celsius for the wash.

They reckon that this is more economical than using a hot water feed from your combi gas boiler. Though I tend to agree with Max, here. If in Cyprus, and your hot water is already free (via Solar), then it makes emminent sense to connect the HW supply to your washing machine, thereby saving leccy during each wash!

AL :)
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