Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

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Paphos Life
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Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by Paphos Life »

Substantive negotiations between Cyprus and Britain regarding the Bases after Brexit will begin on October 11, Foreign Minister Ioannis Kasoulides told deputies on the House foreign affairs committee on Tuesday, dismissing calls from deputies to put their closure on the agenda....

Read the article and chat about it below...
exodus
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by exodus »

The British bases are very necessary as part of safeguarding the security of the UK and its allies.
They would not wish to close them, neither would that be a practical proposition.
The only viable outcome of the "discussions" would be for the UK to pay Cyprus a fair rent for the SBAs, leaving all other issues
such as citizens rights who work there etc unchanged.
i.e. Status Quo, but pay fair rent.
Amos.
WHL
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by WHL »

Good to see both sides in discussions, hopefully it will prevent any grey areas/problems... when/if the Uk leaves the EU.
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by exodus »

WHL wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:45 pm Good to see both sides in discussions, hopefully it will prevent any grey areas/problems... when/if the Uk leaves the EU.
There seems to be a typo in your above post WHL:
Surely "..when/if the UK leaves the EU" should read: "...when the UK leaves the EU"
Amos.
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by WHL »

exodus wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:17 pm
WHL wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:45 pm Good to see both sides in discussions, hopefully it will prevent any grey areas/problems... when/if the Uk leaves the EU.
There seems to be a typo in your above post WHL:
Surely "..when/if the UK leaves the EU" should read: "...when the UK leaves the EU"
Amos.
No mistake, it seems May and co are dragging their feet in leaving, and if there's another general election before we leave, who's to say, things wont change and Brexit never happens, Im a vote leave by the way.
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Jimgward
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by Jimgward »

Hudswell fails to point out that the Treaty of Establishment was 'imposed' upon Cyprus and the "Sovereign" bases are simply a part of occupation.

It should be a Cypriot decision alone, as to whether they remain. It is up to Britain to negotiate remaining, if it is of interest to them, with Cyprus potentially imposing new and Cypriot conditions on the use, terminology and rental...............
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by exodus »

WHL wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:25 pm
exodus wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:17 pm
WHL wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:45 pm Good to see both sides in discussions, hopefully it will prevent any grey areas/problems... when/if the Uk leaves the EU.
There seems to be a typo in your above post WHL:
Surely "..when/if the UK leaves the EU" should read: "...when the UK leaves the EU"
Amos.
No mistake, it seems May and co are dragging their feet in leaving, and if there's another general election before we leave, who's to say, things wont change and Brexit never happens, Im a vote leave by the way.
I am also in favour of UK leaving the EU (although it is not my home country) and note you are also.
UK General Election or not, UK will be leaving, whoever is PM/whichever Party.
The question is, on what basis?
Amos.
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Jimgward
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by Jimgward »

Hudswell wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:46 pm
Jimgward wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:05 pm Hudswell fails to point out that the Treaty of Establishment was 'imposed' upon Cyprus and the "Sovereign" bases are simply a part of occupation.

It should be a Cypriot decision alone, as to whether they remain. It is up to Britain to negotiate remaining, if it is of interest to them, with Cyprus potentially imposing new and Cypriot conditions on the use, terminology and rental...............
What absolute tosh...the Treaty of Establishment was negotiated and agreed by all parties concerned...now it may suit some to twist history to suit their own "version" of events and paint those nasty British as the bad guys....but an agreement was reached and agreed which included the SBA's which will remain as long as the UK wants them to remain...the future talks are not to discuss the future of the SBA's but rather the rights of Cypriot civilians living and working in them...
More tosh than tosh.....

Do you really think the Cypriots at that time, were in any position to properly negotiate? With turkey breathing down their necks?

I’d I was a. Cypriot, I’d want them out....
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by WHL »

Jimgward wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:54 pm
Hudswell wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:46 pm
Jimgward wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:05 pm Hudswell fails to point out that the Treaty of Establishment was 'imposed' upon Cyprus and the "Sovereign" bases are simply a part of occupation.

It should be a Cypriot decision alone, as to whether they remain. It is up to Britain to negotiate remaining, if it is of interest to them, with Cyprus potentially imposing new and Cypriot conditions on the use, terminology and rental...............
What absolute tosh...the Treaty of Establishment was negotiated and agreed by all parties concerned...now it may suit some to twist history to suit their own "version" of events and paint those nasty British as the bad guys....but an agreement was reached and agreed which included the SBA's which will remain as long as the UK wants them to remain...the future talks are not to discuss the future of the SBA's but rather the rights of Cypriot civilians living and working in them...
More tosh than tosh.....

Do you really think the Cypriots at that time, were in any position to properly negotiate? With turkey breathing down their necks?

I’d I was a. Cypriot, I’d want them out....
Its like someone grabbing you by the nuts, twisting them until your eyes are popping out and then giving you the pen, telling you to sign or else. no pressure
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by Jimgward »

Really? In 1960.... when their world was in turmoil, negotiating independence from an occupying country... with their independence coming after the signing over of the bases as sovereign territory.... you are naive if you think they were capable of proper negotiations....

Otherwise, why no rental? All they supposedly benefitted from was protection from outside, which didn’t happen...

I’d imagine if `Cyprus held a BOXIT referendum, it would overwhelmingly vote to remove the bases... or at the very least, reduce them and make Britain pay rental...
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next we

Post by Jimgward »

Hudswell, you are wrong on some accounts, correct on others and biased on the rest.

I am not down on everything British. Far from it. Anti-empire - absolutely. Britain’s all-encompassing Empire building, invasions, suppression and so on were horrendous. I refuse to believe the usual clap-trap about how we helped so many countries.... brought democracy, civilisation and so on....

More like slavery, from Ireland to US to South America.... rape, pillage, suppression, exploitation and theft. For every country that had benefits, there are dozens who didn’t.

In terms of Cyprus, yes, mistakes happened. Britain also responsible for some of them. Cypriots for most. However to claim Cyprus is happy with the SBAs is rubbish.

I want Britain to be Britain. No involvement in the politics of other countries. Our recent records in the Carribean, Africa, Ireland and others are poor, never mind Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. Yes, the good old USA have taken over out=r supremacist conquering and war-mongering role, but as an ex-squaddie, I know I’ll never convince you that you, like many others, risked lives and gave lives in fruitless causes in the pursuit of greed and control.

I’ll be delighted when we become good neighbours to the rest of the world, rather than superemacist, imperialist arse-holes.
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by WHL »

Hudswell wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:18 pm Jim, you have a real downer on anything British...you always leap in defence on anything remotely "anti empire" and are happy to point that finger of blame and guilt at your place of birth....which is fine....Cyprus had just come out of a period of immense turmoil, inter communial violence, Cypriot against Cypriot egged on by Greece and its church...instead of that violence it could have just waited for events to mature, the empire was ending, countries like Malta gained their independence by peaceful negotions, Independance was always going to happen and it did. Makarios got his deal....unfortunately he did not abide by the conditions and the violence continued throughout the 60's and 70's...I suppose that was "our" fault as well...rent was never discussed...aid was offered based on conditions that were never adhered to...the terms of the Independance are binding, the SBA's benefit the Cypriot population, much of the land is inhabited and farmed by locals, the British offered to reduce its "borders" significantly...the SBA police, Cypriots...enforce Cypriot law within the SBA, in regard to illegal bird trapping etc...now if you and others wish to dress in sackcloth, cover yourselves in ashes and continue to blame the woes of the world on the UK, it's former empire, then carry on...but please stop with the remorseless blame game....Cyprus is where it is because of the Cypriots....no conspiracies...the discussions between the UK and Cypriot Government in regard to the future of Cypriots employed within the SBA's after BREXIT will reassure those employed by the UK MOD and those living and farming within the SBA area of responsibility.
No mention of Turkeys Involvement in the Troubles .....Pathetic bias post, as usual. :roll:
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by WHL »

Hudswell wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:24 am Do you actually have any original thought? "Carry on Trolling".
That Coming from the Master Troll on here .Il take that as a compliment, :roll:
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by WHL »

Hudswell wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:45 pm I can actually respect Jims comments, and I know he truely believes in them....but that is the disease that is he liberal left which if left unchecked would lead to anarchy! An incredibly niave view of the world order which simply refuses to acknowledge that the only reason they can "impose" their view on the world, they have freedom of speech and other privilidge they take for advantage is that there are those willing to defend those views even if they do not agree with them. And I don't. Britain was, is and will be a great country, involved in the heart of world..and usually for the better, because it is willing and able to where others shrink from that responsibilty. You will probably turn blue in the face when I say I was proud to serve my country in many conflicts around the globe, and yes I believe we provided the oppourtunity for people to remake their own destinies...what they have done with those new freedoms is down to them...and I do acknowledge we never have or will understand the tribal hierarchy in the Middle East, which is the real reason why many in the west will judge our interventions there a failure, there were not. The SBA's are a vital aid to security in the West, they enable us to take the fight to the terrorist and give us, the west, advance notice of many of their planned atrocities....
Didnt Tony Blair the war criminal, say the same thing?
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by Jimgward »

Similarly I respect Hudswell's views. They are his own.... My wife has similar ones, so we leave politics out of discussions :lol:

I'm sure had I fought in the forces, I'd likely have different views as well, but people's views aren't wrong, perhaps different. In terms of liberal left comments though.... I think you'll find a very large and growing number of people in the UK are now of the same opinion regarding our involvement in conflicts....

Watch the BBC4 Vietnam documentary series (excellent) for a good understanding of how industry creates wars for monetary reasons and how politicians are sometimes duped by public servants for other reasons... I'll not spoil the series, but suffice to say, The Viet Cong leader wasn't the baddie be was portrayed to be and the war was always unwindable. An estimated 4million souls unfortunately paid a price of extreme capitalism and supermacist and misguided warmongering.
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by Royal »

exodus wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:05 am The British bases are very necessary as part of safeguarding the security of the UK and its allies.
They would not wish to close them, neither would that be a practical proposition.
The only viable outcome of the "discussions" would be for the UK to pay Cyprus a fair rent for the SBAs, leaving all other issues
such as citizens rights who work there etc unchanged.
i.e. Status Quo, but pay fair rent.
Amos.
Amos,

I’m not sure why you think that the UK should pay rent. Around 60% of the SBA land is privately owned by Cypriots. The other 40% is owned by the UK. Why should rent be paid?

I also don’t think that the SBAs are as strategically important to the UK now. At one time, Cyprus was an important military staging post in administering the empire in the Far East. Clearly that no longer applies. Also, before 1956, Cyprus was important to the UK in defending its interests in the Suez. Once again, (thanks to President Nasser), that no longer applies. Cyprus used to be an important listening post (the main purpose of the “golf balls”). The digital age of communication has, once again, changed that.

Nevertheless, the SBAs are UK Sovereign Territories and are not up for discussion as far as Brexit is concerned. However, under the failed Annan Plan, the UK had offered to cede 45 sq miles of SBA territory to the Republic of Cyprus. This offer, which is still on the table, has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit and is definitely nothing to do with the EU.

The talks will more than likely concentrate only on any ‘border’ issues between the SBAs and the RoC.

However, it’s worthy of note that under Annex O of the 1960 Treaty of Establishment which Hudswell referred to, both sides undertook “Not to create Customs posts or other frontier barriers between the Sovereign Base Areas and the Republic”

Clearly, this is the basis for the talks next week.
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by exodus »

For Royal:
According to the newspapers, since this thread started, the main topics to be discussed are the rights of Cypriots living and working on SBAs.
Rent has not been mentioned, but I understand there have been moves here in the fairly recent past in the Cyprus parliament to try and get the UK to pay rent.
The SBAs are invaluable for 2 reasons:
1. Gives UK an airbase in the region (heavily used recently to bomb IS).
2. A listening post.
Both the above support not just UK interests, but also their Allies such as my own Country.
It will be interesting, therefore, to see what these upcoming discussions come up with.
Amos.
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by Jimgward »

exodus wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:57 am For Royal:
According to the newspapers, since this thread started, the main topics to be discussed are the rights of Cypriots living and working on SBAs.
Rent has not been mentioned, but I understand there have been moves here in the fairly recent past in the Cyprus parliament to try and get the UK to pay rent.
The SBAs are invaluable for 2 reasons:
1. Gives UK an airbase in the region (heavily used recently to bomb IS).
2. A listening post.
Both the above support not just UK interests, but also their Allies such as my own Country.
It will be interesting, therefore, to see what these upcoming discussions come up with.
Amos.
Agree that the airbase is an important 'friendly' base in the Eastern Med and therefore not one Britain wants to lose.... only other would be Turkey with the US and we shouldn't rely on that exclusively....
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by 2QuarterPints »

I like your arguments Hudswell. Very succinct.
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Re: Discussion on future of Bases to start next week

Post by Varky »

Hudswell wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:45 pm .....I do acknowledge we never have or will understand the tribal hierarchy in the Middle East, which is the real reason why many in the west will judge our interventions there a failure, there were not.
Whilst agreeing with the majority of your post, on the above statement I totally disagree. Western interventions in Iraq, Libya and Syria were a failure simply because, as you said, the West did not understand the tribal hierarchy in those countries and tried to impose a Jefferson democracy for which the population was not culturally ready.
Tantamount to saying that the operation was a success but the patient died.
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