Interesting programme on ITV tonight

[Jim B]

Poppy

Just to clarify regarding UK Universities; the Cypriots may presently use them but like all EU Students they have to pay for the use. Our daughter although a British Passport Holder is classed as an EU Citizen as her resident address is Paphos, Cyprus and we have to pay for everything up front, These thousands of students from abroad both EU and non-EU are what are presently keeping many of our prestige universities afloat.

Jim

[PhotoLady]

All of the private GPs we visited whilst in Cyprus all did their studying and training in UK..... Many European students do the same. As has been said, it will be a big loss eventually and not just for UK

[PhotoLady]

This came on the news last night....

From Bloomberg and the latest polls on Brexit and the ever changing mood.... Now 45% say Brexit isn't a good result

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/arti ... -poll-says

However, it's still early days and things change on a daily basis. As yet, I've heard nothing to change my vote.

[Poppy]

Jim B -nothing against Cypriots or anyone else using our Universities and of course I know they pay to do so. I was just making the point that most Cypriots would be against Brexit because they would be worried about losing their University places. I an sure this will be fairly high on the negotiating table. Not sure about Doctors but I know a lot of pharmacists trained in the UK,Christiana in Peyia told me she was at Liverpool Uni.

[WHL]

Jim B -nothing against Cypriots or anyone else using our Universities and of course I know they pay to do so. I was just making the point that most Cypriots would be against Brexit because they would be worried about losing their University places. I an sure this will be fairly high on the negotiating table. Not sure about Doctors but I know a lot of pharmacists trained in the UK,Christiana in Peyia told me she was at Liverpool Uni.

Would you like to say anything on your uncorrect statement ''Of course Cypriots only see it from their point of view.They are beneficiaries of the EU funds whereas the UK has been a major contributor!

[Poppy]

Sorry WHL I have been trying to find the information but so far have only come up with 2013 and 2015 . Certainly in 2013 Cyprus received more than they contributed but in 2015 they appear to have contributed slightly more than they received and I cannot find any figures for 2016 so partly right and partly wrong! Of course I am correct in saying the UK is a major contributor - I think the 3rd largest?

[WHL]

Thank you Poppy, but there is no partly/slightly in it, since Cyprus joined the EU, they have paid in more then they have received...you are correct that the UK is a major contributor, (unfairly paying too much in my book)

[Jim B]

Poppy

Many Students from Cyprus including non -Cypriots are now looking towards the Slovenia and other countries within the EU to continue their education; Slovenia now has English speaking Universities and tuition is free. I read recently that student status has been changed by the present government which makes it much more difficult to obtain visas and there have been numerous representations by the Red Brick Universities complaining about this. I'm not pointing the finger at any party though from first hand experience the cost of sending our children to further education is becoming prohibitive in the UK and will become beyond the reach of a large proportion of English and Welsh families.

Jim

[Lofos-Jan]

I would concur with Jim. A very small number of my son's fellow students went to study in the UK - the vast majority actually study in Greece and in Cyprus. Within our family, only my son went to the UK. 4 of my 6 nephews studied in Greece and two in Cyprus. Most of my sons peers who went to the UK to study had some form of connection e.g. English Cypriot or one parent from the UK. Many EU countries have much lower university costs than the U.K. and one of my son's friends is studying in Germany as the cost of a medical degree there is only a couple of thousand euros. My Cypriot dentist's daughter is currently studying to be a dentist herself at University in Slovakia and I know of many engineers/architects who studied for their degrees at Eastern European unis or in the USA.

There are two issues here as even without Brexit, the increase of tuition fees in the U.K. from £3,500 to over £9,000 a couple of years ago is what has caused the recent drop in applicants in my opinion. Who in their right mind would want to be saddled with that kind of debt when an education in the English language is now available so much cheaper elsewhere in Europe. If the increasing number of degrees in English was available 4 years back, my son would probably not now have a debt around his neck of approx. €40,000 to the UK government - and with a high and ever increasing interest rate to boot.

I also agree that this will be out of reach for many English and Welsh young people in the future. The increase in tuition fees was shocking and a big mistake in my opinion. How is it that so many other countries can afford to provide a good university education for their young people at much lower rates than the UK can. It's not standards as believe it or not, the rest of the world is catching up with the UK!

Jeanne

[Poppy]

Thanks for that WHL,would you happen to have the figures for each year since Cyprus joined the EU ( contributions and receipts)?
I would be most interested and cannot find it myself.

[PaphosAL]

Well said, and eloquently put, Jeanne! You hit the nail right on the head with your 2lb lump hammer there! HMG wearing blinkers regarding future generations, or what?

Cheers- AL

[Dominic]

I would concur with Jim. A very small number of my son's fellow students went to study in the UK - the vast majority actually study in Greece and in Cyprus. Within our family, only my son went to the UK. 4 of my 6 nephews studied in Greece and two in Cyprus. Most of my sons peers who went to the UK to study had some form of connection e.g. English Cypriot or one parent from the UK. Many EU countries have much lower university costs than the U.K. and one of my son's friends is studying in Germany as the cost of a medical degree there is only a couple of thousand euros. My Cypriot dentist's daughter is currently studying to be a dentist herself at University in Slovakia and I know of many engineers/architects who studied for their degrees at Eastern European unis or in the USA.

There are two issues here as even without Brexit, the increase of tuition fees in the U.K. from £3,500 to over £9,000 a couple of years ago is what has caused the recent drop in applicants in my opinion. Who in their right mind would want to be saddled with that kind of debt when an education in the English language is now available so much cheaper elsewhere in Europe. If the increasing number of degrees in English was available 4 years back, my son would probably not now have a debt around his neck of approx. €40,000 to the UK government - and with a high and ever increasing interest rate to boot.

I also agree that this will be out of reach for many English and Welsh young people in the future. The increase in tuition fees was shocking and a big mistake in my opinion. How is it that so many other countries can afford to provide a good university education for their young people at much lower rates than the UK can. It's not standards as believe it or not, the rest of the world is catching up with the UK!

Jeanne

The trouble with degrees in the UK is that they want 50% of the emerging workforce population to have one. That's great if 50% of the jobs are high paying and require a degree. But they aren't.

The UK needs to stop being so up its own posterior, recognise that there is absolutely nothing wrong with learning a trade via an apprenticeship scheme, and stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes. If the only people who went to university were people who actually needed a degree to do their chosen career, then you could go back to the grant system.

[PaphosAL]

Agreed, Dom! I went straight from 6th form at age 16 into a 5 year Vauxhall Motors apprenticeship back in 1962 with 5 GCE O levels. Never went to later college (apart from Vauxhall day release to gain C&G Qualis), A Levels, nor Uni after...

I wouldn't change that now, at nearly 70, even if I had the chance, tbh! AL

[DavidatLWH]

I would concur with Jim. A very small number of my son's fellow students went to study in the UK - the vast majority actually study in Greece and in Cyprus. Within our family, only my son went to the UK. 4 of my 6 nephews studied in Greece and two in Cyprus. Most of my sons peers who went to the UK to study had some form of connection e.g. English Cypriot or one parent from the UK. Many EU countries have much lower university costs than the U.K. and one of my son's friends is studying in Germany as the cost of a medical degree there is only a couple of thousand euros. My Cypriot dentist's daughter is currently studying to be a dentist herself at University in Slovakia and I know of many engineers/architects who studied for their degrees at Eastern European unis or in the USA.

There are two issues here as even without Brexit, the increase of tuition fees in the U.K. from £3,500 to over £9,000 a couple of years ago is what has caused the recent drop in applicants in my opinion. Who in their right mind would want to be saddled with that kind of debt when an education in the English language is now available so much cheaper elsewhere in Europe. If the increasing number of degrees in English was available 4 years back, my son would probably not now have a debt around his neck of approx. €40,000 to the UK government - and with a high and ever increasing interest rate to boot.

I also agree that this will be out of reach for many English and Welsh young people in the future. The increase in tuition fees was shocking and a big mistake in my opinion. How is it that so many other countries can afford to provide a good university education for their young people at much lower rates than the UK can. It's not standards as believe it or not, the rest of the world is catching up with the UK!

Jeanne

The trouble with degrees in the UK is that they want 50% of the emerging workforce population to have one. That's great if 50% of the jobs are high paying and require a degree. But they aren't.

The UK needs to stop being so up its own posterior, recognise that there is absolutely nothing wrong with learning a trade via an apprenticeship scheme, and stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes. If the only people who went to university were people who actually needed a degree to do their chosen career, then you could go back to the grant system.

Spot on Dominic. I went to university in the 60's and my parents were seriously poor. If I'd had to have such a debt then there would have been no chance of people like me going to university . As it was I got the "maximum" grant (£360 per year!) to pay my board, lodgings etc, with tuition fees being free. The whole system of degrees has been debased - well, for people me, anyway.

[Jim B]

There are certain vocations that a University education is both necessary and a requirement, my daughter wants to become a Doctor which is one of those vocations that require a degree. I reckon over the last three years we have spent between 65 and 75 thousand pounds on tuition fees, accommodation, spending money and travel expenses backwards and forwards to Cyprus. It's a lot of money and with the reduction in students affecting income I can only see it becoming out of reach to many of our children and grandchildren, it appears all the opportunities they had to attend cheaper or free universities throughout Europe has been lost.

Jim

[smudger]

I think the situation with degrees and further education has become totally flawed.

The government provides free education up to school leaving age. A given. This is funded, like so much other government expenditure, by taxation. The 'cake" provided by taxation is an ever decreasing commodity.
Just how much more would taxpayers be prepared to pay in taxes for free university education to be added to the freebies provided by taxation??

University education is a choice, not a necessity, so why should taxpayers fund this? Yes, I know there is the argument, already voiced here, that society needs the doctors, lawyers, dentists.......... which university education provides, but where does the largesse end! The cake provided by taxation is not bottomless and it comes with costs - to the taxpayer! And why does the cake have to provide for doctors, lawyers, dentists but not plumbers, electricians, hairdressers????

Where do we draw the line?

Numerous posts here quote the low cost of university education in other EU countries than the U.K. How many of these countries are net contributors to the EU pot, and how many are net receivers? Let me take a guess on Slovenia Jim? Net receiver? So who exactly is paying for their oh so attractive low university fees? Maybe the UK and other net contributors??? Why are they paying for low uni costs in Slovenia whilst students in UK have to go into debt to fund their uni education????

It's all relative. So many people believe that their own precious want is a priority, be it Uni education or otherwise, but at the end of the day the cake accumulated from UK taxpayers can be sliced into only so many pieces. And if those pieces compare unfavourably with what other EU countruescan provide, then perhaps sone people need to delve deeper into exactly who is providing the largesse in other EU countries.

Which may well provide the answer to why the sensible voters in the UK decided to opt out of this very expensive club called the EU.

[smudger]

And Dominic, I do agree about Uk degrees. Having worked as a Finance Manager in a huge secondary school for the last 13 years of my working life I can say that the push for students to go to Uni is driven solely by money. 6th form students attract the highest pay formula for schools, so Heads and Heads of 6th forms have an agenda in encouraging students to stay on into 6th form and pursue Uni education. Hence the outbreak of non relative degrees in fields where there is probably a ratio of 1:100, or maybe 1:1000 in terms of kosher jobs available in the real world.

An outbreak of reality is desperately needed.

[PaphosAL]

Have you been back on the Vodka this evening, Jacs?

x

[Rita Sherry]

Excellent posts Jeanne and Jacs (Smudger). Jacs you have hit the nail right on the head regarding the apportionment of the National Cake but unfortunately many people do not look at it this way. There is a sense of "entitlement" which continues to grow irrespective of the facts and the consequences.

It was Harold Wilson's Government who decreed "every child should be able to go to University" a noble idea and as a Conservative, capital and small C.I had respect for that gentleman. Thus the rush to get as many children as possible into University irrespective of ability (hence the proliferation of subject matter courses which is increasingly doubtful whether a degree is necessary). Later along came Mr Blair whose tenure resulted in the closing of the Technical Colleges so those more equipped for essential trade occupations had no choice as such.

Like DavidatLWH (I hope that is correct) I went to University in very similar circumstances as himself (my mother did 3 jobs to support that decision) albeit there were no tuition fees to pay. My chosen career path (law) required a degree (in fact I eventually got two) but when I applied for articles I was expected to and did do them unpaid (that system has been changed and so it should have been).

As Jacs correctly says schools now push University courses irrespective of suitability consequently resulting in the position whereby the cost of Education to the taxpayer has become a bottomless pit. I have no problem with children aspiring to University and beyond always providing the ability is there in the first place and then maybe we could get back to the grant system rather than saddling children and their parents with future debt.

To add a lighter sense into this post - my actual ambition was to be the first Lady Prime Minister but I got beaten to the post by one Margarett Thatcher


Rita

[Lofos-Jan]

Numerous posts here quote the low cost of university education in other EU countries than the U.K. How many of these countries are net contributors to the EU pot, and how many are net receivers?

I think you are probably a little out of touch. university education in pretty much every EU country including Germany, France and the other net contributors is either free or with minimal charges. Some private universities charge higher but almost all are lower than the U.K. which stands alone in the (rising) charges made to its young people for this form of education. So I still ask, how can they all do and the UK cannot?

From the web:
France is one of the most popular countries and has also very affordable tuition fees: public universities charge both EU and non-EU students only between about EUR 200 and EUR 650 EUR per year depending on study level (Bachelor’s/Master's) and study programme. For instance, average tuition fees for medicine studies can lead to 452 EUR per year, while for engineering, students will have to pay around 620 EUR per year.

Germany is another European country that has top universities but very low tuition or even no tuition fees. In contrast to other countries, this also applies to students outside of the EU/EEA!

Jeanne