Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

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cyprusmax47
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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by cyprusmax47 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:36 am

Hudswell wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:59 am
Having lived in Italy...the birthplace of the Pizza😎, I can categorically state I never saw a female Pizza chef! I also noticed a complete absence of the "PC" police.....
Agree absolutely Hudswell. Never saw a female doing Pizza in North Italy where I used to live 4 years. Beside that, when I returned back to Cyprus I stopped eating Pizza here as the difference is so huge. Many here have no idea to do a nice thin base beside the topping is so poor quality. Coming to prices: I paid 6 Euro for Pizza with Parma Ham and the highest price was 10 Euro for Pizza with fresh truffles or Porcini (seps) when they were in season. (yummy)
But one cannot have everything....
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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Dominic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:54 am

Austin7 wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:29 am
Dominic wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:15 am
I was asking Austin about their experience. It was my fault for not quoting them.
I'm confused - you weren't asking me :!: :?
You are quite right. I really should stop trying to post while I am using my tablet. I need my keyboard. :)

So, let's take it from the top...
bromerzz wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:03 pm
Regardless of what the Law says about advertising and recruitment, once you give the applicants the courtesy of an interview you as the Employer can pick who you want. I used to hate our company HR department telling me as the Operations manger that I had to recruit all manner of ethnic groups and abilities and disabilities. Some jobs suit a particular person - if its a Male you want then that is what you should be allowed to recruit rather than waste everyones time and money on needless interviews.
What were the jobs that suited males rather than females, and white people rather than ethnic minorities?

I would have thought that the most important factors would be ability and personality.
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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by PeteandSylvi » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:09 am

Happy in Cyprus wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:55 am
Dominic wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:29 pm
What were the jobs that suited males rather than females, and white people rather than ethnic minorities? I would have thought that the most important factors would be ability and personality.

In this particular instance, as Pete posted further up this thread (from the company advertising the job):

"Traditionally pizza chefs are men due to the very heavy physical work involved in dough production but we are, as we say, prepared to accept anyone who can handle such activities. We have amended and re-posted the advertisement accordingly".

Seems fair enough to me; they know what's required of an employee better than any of us do.
So do we agree that it would have been far better to have made the above statement in the original job ad? That described the job well and would have made it clear to unsuitable candidates of either sex. Equally it would have made it clear to relevant females, and I've no doubt that there are many, who are very capable of the hard physical work. It would have also been within the law which is the key issue: they broke the law - nothing to do with Political Correctness at all. I am quite outspoken against PC activities which are daft, but in this case I realised that it was not the root problem. It's a pity some of the contributors on here don't seem to understand that just because you don't like a process you can't just right it off as another PC issue.

Pete

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Dominic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:13 am

PeteandSylvi wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:09 am
Happy in Cyprus wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:55 am
Dominic wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:29 pm
What were the jobs that suited males rather than females, and white people rather than ethnic minorities? I would have thought that the most important factors would be ability and personality.

In this particular instance, as Pete posted further up this thread (from the company advertising the job):

"Traditionally pizza chefs are men due to the very heavy physical work involved in dough production but we are, as we say, prepared to accept anyone who can handle such activities. We have amended and re-posted the advertisement accordingly".

Seems fair enough to me; they know what's required of an employee better than any of us do.
So do we agree that it would have been far better to have made the above statement in the original job ad? That described the job well and would have made it clear to unsuitable candidates of either sex. Equally it would have made it clear to relevant females, and I've no doubt that there are many, who are very capable of the hard physical work. It would have also been within the law which is the key issue: they broke the law - nothing to do with Political Correctness at all. I am quite outspoken against PC activities which are daft, but in this case I realised that it was not the root problem. It's a pity some of the contributors on here don't seem to understand that just because you don't like a process you can't just right it off as another PC issue.

Pete
I agree. If you blame everything on PC it becomes meaningless. Health and Safety has a similar problem.
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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Rita Sherry » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:25 pm

Pete

Please permit me to disagree with your statement that this Company "broke the law" and your shock at seeing "this blatant gender bias". Reading the original advert whilst it is quite clear there was preference for a male applicant it nevertheless was qualified by the use of the words "but all applicants will be considered" thus making it arguable that there was any overt gender bias. Regarding the "Must be of EU origin" statement a poster has already given a possible explanation for this terminology and is correct in the assumption. Non EU workers have limits placed on the type of work, hours etc they are permitted to undertake under Employment Law and Immigration Law and woe betide any employer found employing someone who is not entitled to be so - he/she is looking at a very hefty fine (the employer that is not the employed).

I applaud your defence of us females but however strong (physically) they may be I have yet to see females building roads, working on building sites and, in the case of the UK and other industrialised nations I dont think there are many females working in the mining industry etc nor can I see any sensible female wishing to do so. We faught long and hard to stop women and children being sent down the mines and up chimneys. That having been said I did know of one female "Factory Inspector", as they were then called, who was most adapt at hoping up ladders on building sites etc and who put the fear of God into most managers and owners alike when she descended on their companies.

The Company under discussion is endeavouring to run a business which gives employment to others and service to the general populace and, for my part, I do feel they and others like them can well do without well meaning people scrutinising each and every word used in advertising etc in the event they may or may not be "breaking the law"

As any law student can tell you the underlying principle of good law is "Equity is a shield and not a sword"

Rita

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by PeteandSylvi » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:08 pm

Rita Sherry wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:25 pm
Pete

Please permit me to disagree with your statement that this Company "broke the law" and your shock at seeing "this blatant gender bias". Reading the original advert whilst it is quite clear there was preference for a male applicant it nevertheless was qualified by the use of the words "but all applicants will be considered" thus making it arguable that there was any overt gender bias. Regarding the "Must be of EU origin" statement a poster has already given a possible explanation for this terminology and is correct in the assumption. Non EU workers have limits placed on the type of work, hours etc they are permitted to undertake under Employment Law and Immigration Law and woe betide any employer found employing someone who is not entitled to be so - he/she is looking at a very hefty fine (the employer that is not the employed).

I applaud your defence of us females but however strong (physically) they may be I have yet to see females building roads, working on building sites and, in the case of the UK and other industrialised nations I dont think there are many females working in the mining industry etc nor can I see any sensible female wishing to do so. We faught long and hard to stop women and children being sent down the mines and up chimneys. That having been said I did know of one female "Factory Inspector", as they were then called, who was most adapt at hoping up ladders on building sites etc and who put the fear of God into most managers and owners alike when she descended on their companies.

The Company under discussion is endeavouring to run a business which gives employment to others and service to the general populace and, for my part, I do feel they and others like them can well do without well meaning people scrutinising each and every word used in advertising etc in the event they may or may not be "breaking the law"

As any law student can tell you the underlying principle of good law is "Equity is a shield and not a sword"

Rita
You make very good points although I think closer scrutiny will show females working in many occupations, including those you mention, which were previously all male domains. Long may this continue to expand.

If you review what I said in my posts you will see that I concluded the matter was closed when the Brewery apologised and rectified their mistake. This apology had nothing to do with this forum. I did not intend to comment further but felt that Lloyd's post could be expanded further just to make the point that the wording in the brewery retraction would have been better placed in the original ad.

I have no axe to grind against the Brewery, enjoy their products and have eaten there but they made a mistake in their advert and I felt it was worthy of posting on here and asked for discussion. The mistake in their advert for which I did not have to scrutinise every word, was rather outstanding and obvious not only to me but to others on the original Facebook post.

It seems that the Brewery have correctly acknowledged and dealt with the issue, I have expressed my satisfaction with their doing so and applaud this but others still want to perpetuate the discussion. Is there some sort of regret that an unpleasant argument did not ensue as so often happens on forums?

Pete

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Rita Sherry » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:46 pm

Pete

I did not nor do I ever wish to commence an unpleasant argument on this forum or any other - one of the reasons I do not utilise the so called debating facilities of facebook/twitter or any other questionable social media. My point was based solely on the merits of the legal position you were espousing nothing more nor nothing less. Your prerogative to dismiss those facts.

Rita

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by memory man » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:51 pm

Children's perception of occupations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv8VZVP5csA
Image

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Happy in Cyprus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:44 am

To briefly answer your earlier response Pete: firstly, I wholeheartedly agree with Rita's points and sentiments.

I embrace every form of equality. I love to see female captains of 747's and all female cockpit crew; something which would have been unthinkable as little as 30 years ago. I applaud Alfa Mega for employing people with learning disabilities in their stores and wish that other Cypriot companies would follow suit. And I like nothing better than to see women carrying out work which in years gone by was only done by men, eg.car mechanics, engineers, space exploration, etc. However, when it comes to Aphrodite's Brewery we have to accept that the owner of the business knows his requirements better than us...and as Hudswell and one other pointed out, making and baking pizzas seems to have always been a male preserve in view of the hard physical labour involved. The owner of the business could have wasted a lot of everyone's time by making his advert less gender-specific from the outset; but I think he did the right thing by advertising for a man, but qualifying that statement by saying that all applications would be considered.

Anyway, the owner subsequently rescinded the advert and apologised for any offence caused, so all of us can thankfully now consider the matter closed.

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Austin7 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:40 am

As the old saying goes 'there's no such thing as bad publicity'. The big advantage to Aphrodite Rock Brewery is that many more people now know it exists and will frequent their restaurant/bar to enjoy the best beer and pizzas (and other menu) in Cyprus not far up the Polis Road. 8-)

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Jim B » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:13 pm

In our company it doesn't matter if you're 18 or 80, male or female; as long as you're good enough is all that matters. One of my bosses is a young Spanish lady and a very competent Process Engineer who we all respect. We have handicapped colleagues who are as good at their job as any able bodied person; no one is favoured as all are judged on ability.

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by smudger » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:41 pm

Exactly how it should be Jim. I hate positive discrimination, it's just an expensive drag on business.

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by PaphosAL » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:21 pm

smudger wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:41 pm
Exactly how it should be Jim. I hate positive discrimination, it's just an expensive drag on business.
There's a subtle joke in there somewhere, Jacs, or was the pun unintended? I'd better avoid that one I think...

Are you both back in Trimi now? How did Easter in UK go? PM or email me when you get a chance, pls..

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Jim B » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:37 pm

We often have women working in the Construction industry as Welders, Electricians, Insulators and Scaffolders. I've even seen them working on the roads so to suggest making pizzas is too much for them is very demeaning. By the way thes ladies used to work an 84 hour week

Jim

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by PaphosAL » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:19 pm

Jim B- I've seen a woman helping her OH plaster a very high and very long dry-lined curved wall at the central hall of BAE Systems new HQ in Luton in 2004. (now called Finnequestra, or similar?) Both wearing PPE of course (hard hats, safety boots, hi-vis jackets, gloves, safety glasses etc)

We were doing the largest and most amazing Fire Alarm system of our lives. But to watch this couple plastering was a joy to behold! The whole wall finished up looking like your typical MARBLE worktop at home, astonishing!

We could come along afterwards, use a Stanley plasterboard saw in (1m AGL) and cut a 75mm square hole, reach in and drag our two cables out, make the cable ends off, connect them into a 1G P/B back box, then a few minutes later- voilá! There's your red fire alarm break glass unit all installed! God, how I used to enjoy those days...

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Cliffy amo » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:33 pm

Here is our ride to the Aphrodite's rock brewery for any of the male or female future employees!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDTz-jP03tU
Cliffy amo
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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Cogs123 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:58 pm

Having worked for the military for over 20yrs. as a serving soldier & civilian, I encountered both strong/weak men, & strong/weak women. Invariably, the women had to work twice as hard as the men in order to prove they were as capable of doing the job & in doing so, earned the respect of their male colleagues.
On my frequent visits to Cyprus, I have observed on numerous occasions a more patriarchal society, I am willing to be corrected on this by the permanent residents of course, as they have more experience than I, but I can only assume that the consequences of this patriarchy is that women are often excluded from various positions of work as it is deemed to be a mans job.
Perhaps a young lady will apply & put an end to the myth that they are incapable of doing ' heavy work '. :lol:
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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by WHL » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:03 pm

Women cant do heavy work, nonsense ..anyone visiting Cyprus pre the 70s would of seen many women some elderly dressed in black...digging and filling roads, by hand in extreme heat, im a strapping lad but I wouldn't of lasted ten minutes doing what they did all day.

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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by trevnhil » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:20 pm

I remember seeing women working on the roads. The women were digging and the men just wheeled the full barrows and emptied them ready for another load

Trev..
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Re: Aphrodite's Rock Brewery - Gender Bias

Post by Happy in Cyprus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:28 pm

...and my wife slaves away at the kitchen sink, the cooker, the ironing board and the vacuum cleaner...while I simply play on the keyboard and make interesting forays throughout Cyprus to meet customers.

It's an unfair World :lol: :lol: But we're still happily married after 48 years 8-)

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