Petition against Boris's Plan

[Jimgym]

Maybe you should look up what representative democracy means. MPs aren´t delegates who have to accept orders from their constituencies. And for good reason. At least that´s what I learnt in school (in Germany though).

And maybe you should look up what the Prime minister of the day, said when he announced the referendum, with respect after everyone of your posts you quote thats what happens in Germany, well its got nothing to do with the UK.

Well, I´m German, so I´neither took specific interest in what went on in the UK nor am I in a position to comment from a British perspective. Brexit only affects me personally insofar as I have some of my retirement savings invested in the UK and I don´t like what´s happened to them and the value of the GBP.
That said, I don´t think the concept of representative democracy has anything to do with which country you´re from. Plus I haven´t "quoted" what happens in Germany but rather tried to clarify that concept a bit. A PM can´t speak for Parliament (the sovereign) anyway, so you can´t base your argument (that because Cameron said the referendum will be binding it will indeed be) on it. Also, as I tried to point out in another thread, there was no referendum on whether the UK should leave to customs union and the common market and therefore, nobody can claim to have a mandate for a no deal Brexit (in my view anyway). From what I read in different forums I have some doubts that the ordinary man in the street knows what common market and customs union are about anyway (neither did I before I looked it up).

Incorrect Jeba. Cameron made it quite plain, and very clear that if Britain voted leave it would also mean leaving the single market. A question I answered in response to you on a different thread. I have added the link here where he specifically says so in a BBC tv interview.“What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market. He said the Brexit campaign had made it clear to voters that voting to leave also meant pulling out of the single market." https://www.politico.eu/article/david-c ... nces-news/

[WHL]

Maybe you should look up what representative democracy means. MPs aren´t delegates who have to accept orders from their constituencies. And for good reason. At least that´s what I learnt in school (in Germany though).

And maybe you should look up what the Prime minister of the day, said when he announced the referendum, with respect after everyone of your posts you quote thats what happens in Germany, well its got nothing to do with the UK.

Well, I´m German, so I´neither took specific interest in what went on in the UK nor am I in a position to comment from a British perspective. Brexit only affects me personally insofar as I have some of my retirement savings invested in the UK and I don´t like what´s happened to them and the value of the GBP.
That said, I don´t think the concept of representative democracy has anything to do with which country you´re from. Plus I haven´t "quoted" what happens in Germany but rather tried to clarify that concept a bit. A PM can´t speak for Parliament (the sovereign) anyway, so you can´t base your argument (that because Cameron said the referendum will be binding it will indeed be) on it. Also, as I tried to point out in another thread, there was no referendum on whether the UK should leave to customs union and the common market and therefore, nobody can claim to have a mandate for a no deal Brexit (in my view anyway). From what I read in different forums I have some doubts that the ordinary man in the street knows what common market and customs union are about anyway (neither did I before I looked it up).

It was a very simple question, Leave or remain , no more no less, I wished it had been won by remain, it didnt,,, that is Democracy as I know it,.... maybe in a few years down the line, another Government will have a referendum about rejoining the EU once more?

[Jim B]

Definition of Democracy.

Taken from the OED (with my comments in brackets).

1. Government by the people; (note, not by Parliament)
2. A form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people (again not Parliament) and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
3. A sovereign (independent) state having such a form of government:
4. A state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges. (Respecting the majority vote)
5. Political or social equality; democratic spirit. (The EU Referendum was the peoples vote not the politicians)
6. The common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power. (Hope Speaker Bercow, who's meant to be impartial know knows this)

_________________
Clive of Payia

Try typing in Representitive Democracy.

Jim

[Jim B]

Anyone remember when Great Britain was the model Democracy, and all the World looked up to it and respected how things got done, now when talking about Democracy, its no better then North Korea I wanted the UK to stay in Europe, but a referendum was had and the majority voted to leave, that is Democracy, not agreeing to accept votes that only go with your views.

Like most over the years I've accepted results of elections both local and general. I may not have liked the result but have accepted it because all in all they were usually carried out with integrity and honesty.
The referendum on the other hand was corrupted by certain groups who were reported to the police by the the Electoral Commission.
The difference as I see it is people like me support democracy but with honesty and integrity wereas you're quite happy to accept the result won by any means.
Of course if Remain had lost under acceptable standards I would still support remain but would have accepted the result but by supporting this referendum result you are condoning corruption at the heart of our democratic system.
It's not me who said the referendum had no legal standing, it was the Supreme Court, it was not me who said the referendum was corrupted, it was the Electoral Commission

Jim

Sorry but your scrapping the barrel, the country went to the polls in a simple remain or leave vote, name me one politician that dosnt lie, and had the vote been to remain, im sure you would not be questioning its legal standing....having that War Criminal scum bag Tony Blair, calling for another referendum, should tell you everything you want to know...... as I said I think the UK is shooting its self in the foot, by leaving, but it was the wish of the people, and as a Democrat, thats the end of it.

If expecting honesty and integrity in our elections is scraping the barrel then I'm guilty as charged. Its all OK because politicians lie and thats acceptable?
If the questions asked of and proved against the leave campaign were asked of Remain I wouldn't be writing on here trying to defend the indefensible.
What's the difference between our elections and those of say Russia, they claim their elections are fair and democratic. You're right in that once we were a beacon for democracy but now we're an embarressment.

Jim

[WHL]

Like most over the years I've accepted results of elections both local and general. I may not have liked the result but have accepted it because all in all they were usually carried out with integrity and honesty.
The referendum on the other hand was corrupted by certain groups who were reported to the police by the the Electoral Commission.
The difference as I see it is people like me support democracy but with honesty and integrity wereas you're quite happy to accept the result won by any means.
Of course if Remain had lost under acceptable standards I would still support remain but would have accepted the result but by supporting this referendum result you are condoning corruption at the heart of our democratic system.
It's not me who said the referendum had no legal standing, it was the Supreme Court, it was not me who said the referendum was corrupted, it was the Electoral Commission

Jim

Sorry but your scrapping the barrel, the country went to the polls in a simple remain or leave vote, name me one politician that dosnt lie, and had the vote been to remain, im sure you would not be questioning its legal standing....having that War Criminal scum bag Tony Blair, calling for another referendum, should tell you everything you want to know...... as I said I think the UK is shooting its self in the foot, by leaving, but it was the wish of the people, and as a Democrat, thats the end of it.

If expecting honesty and integrity in our elections is scraping the barrel then I'm guilty as charged. Its all OK because politicians lie and thats acceptable?
If the questions asked of and proved against the leave campaign were asked of Remain I wouldn't be writing on here trying to defend the indefensible.
What's the difference between our elections and those of say Russia, they claim their elections are fair and democratic. You're right in that once we were a beacon for democracy but now we're an embarressment.

Jim

Jim every time a politician opens their mouth, there's a good chance that they are spinning a lie, both sides spun the truth, and the cherry on the cake is wheeling out Phoney Tony, a beacon of truth, im on your side re staying in, but if you want to claim you agree with democracy then you have to accept the choice of the people.

[mike strand2]

Ah a petition, which unlike an election or indeed the referendum, has no controls in place to ensure the “voting public” are indeed the “voting public”.

It says open to over 18's who are UK Citizens or have a residence in UK. Nothing to with voting lists & IMHO that's how the referendum should have been conducted, though with a lower age of 16.

[Earlsfield]

Ah a petition, which unlike an election or indeed the referendum, has no controls in place to ensure the “voting public” are indeed the “voting public”.

It says open to over 18's who are UK Citizens or have a residence in UK. Nothing to with voting lists & IMHO that's how the referendum should have been conducted, though with a lower age of 16.

And how exactly are you going to ensure anyone who signs the petition is over 18, residing in the UK and are/or UK citizens? Voting in a GE, local election, European election have checks in place to at least minimise abuse...these petitions do not.

[jeba]

And maybe you should look up what the Prime minister of the day, said when he announced the referendum, with respect after everyone of your posts you quote thats what happens in Germany, well its got nothing to do with the UK.

Well, I´m German, so I´neither took specific interest in what went on in the UK nor am I in a position to comment from a British perspective. Brexit only affects me personally insofar as I have some of my retirement savings invested in the UK and I don´t like what´s happened to them and the value of the GBP.
That said, I don´t think the concept of representative democracy has anything to do with which country you´re from. Plus I haven´t "quoted" what happens in Germany but rather tried to clarify that concept a bit. A PM can´t speak for Parliament (the sovereign) anyway, so you can´t base your argument (that because Cameron said the referendum will be binding it will indeed be) on it. Also, as I tried to point out in another thread, there was no referendum on whether the UK should leave to customs union and the common market and therefore, nobody can claim to have a mandate for a no deal Brexit (in my view anyway). From what I read in different forums I have some doubts that the ordinary man in the street knows what common market and customs union are about anyway (neither did I before I looked it up).

It was a very simple question, Leave or remain , no more no less, I wished it had been won by remain, it didnt,,, that is Democracy as I know it,.... maybe in a few years down the line, another Government will have a referendum about rejoining the EU once more?

That is was a very simple question is part of the problem in my view. Complicated problems aren´t adequately adressed by simple questions. Plus, as I pointed out already, the question wasn´t about leaving the common market nor the customs union. No matter what the PM had said. If I was asked whether I wanted my country to leave the EU I might answer yes because some EU regulations are too bothersome for my liking (e. g. when I´m "protected" from myself when it comes to investing in some securities I´d like to invest in). But I´d never want it to leave the common market or the customs union. If I was British I´d be furious about a no-deal Brexit because there was no mandate given for it (even if you believe in direct rather than representative democracy - which I don´t anyway).

[jeba]

Incorrect Jeba. Cameron made it quite plain, and very clear that if Britain voted leave it would also mean leaving the single market. A question I answered in response to you on a different thread. I have added the link here where he specifically says so in a BBC tv interview.“What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market. He said the Brexit campaign had made it clear to voters that voting to leave also meant pulling out of the single market." https://www.politico.eu/article/david-c ... nces-news/

For the reasons I stated above I don´t think my statement was incorrect. What Cameron said is one thing, what was asked in the referendum was another. Plus even if one accepted your point with regard to the common market there would still be the customs union which you didn´t adress. Also, I cannot find any corroboration of your argument provided by the article you linked to. It neither mentions the common market nor the customs union.

[Jim B]

Ah a petition, which unlike an election or indeed the referendum, has no controls in place to ensure the “voting public” are indeed the “voting public”.

It says open to over 18's who are UK Citizens or have a residence in UK. Nothing to with voting lists & IMHO that's how the referendum should have been conducted, though with a lower age of 16.

And how exactly are you going to ensure anyone who signs the petition is over 18, residing in the UK and are/or UK citizens? Voting in a GE, local election, European election have checks in place to at least minimise abuse...these petitions do not.

What other way do we have to protest, should we take to the barricades or storm number 10?
Even if a figure of 10% of signatures are "iffy" it still leaves a figure of nearly one and a half million which are legitimate.
Jim

[Jimgward]

This petition is a way of opposition using it to demonstrate the strength of feeling.

We could all argue about the legitimacy of the original referendum and would have to disagree. However, what is patently obvious, is that no matter what either side said in the run-up, people by nature, hear a sound-bite and go with that. Cameron could have made some things more explanatory in a news broadcast, but only a small percentage of the population would have heard him and an even smaller percentage would have taken it in.

The referendum was a litmus test, at that time, of the populace regarding the EU. No whys, wherefores, or indeed to what level was involved as ~Cameron stupidly chose a too simple question. Since then, I have heard loads of people who voted leave, say they didn’t understand and now would either vote remain, or would certainly never have voted for a no-deal, knowing what they now know.

I personally have never heard anyone who voted remain, to have changed their mind - although I am sure there will be some.

What EVERY poll since has said, is that on a second vote, remain would now win. That is the mood of the populace. There are still a significant number want to leave, no-matter what, but they are now in the significant minority - something less than 40%.

So, should we now jeopardise the future for our children and grandchildren, on a one-off referendum that advised us to leave, based on wrong and incorrectly described details? Or do we give the country a chance to revisit it all, now that people know the consequences? That’s a proper democracy.

[Earlsfield]

It says open to over 18's who are UK Citizens or have a residence in UK. Nothing to with voting lists & IMHO that's how the referendum should have been conducted, though with a lower age of 16.

And how exactly are you going to ensure anyone who signs the petition is over 18, residing in the UK and are/or UK citizens? Voting in a GE, local election, European election have checks in place to at least minimise abuse...these petitions do not.

What other way do we have to protest, should we take to the barricades or storm number 10?
Even if a figure of 10% of signatures are "iffy" it still leaves a figure of nearly one and a half million which are legitimate.
Jim

My point is, there is no control over who signs these petitions, and yes are completely open to fraud, and in regard to this petition, the “attrition” rate could easily be a lot more than 10%. The right to free and peaceful protest is enshrined in British law, so no, you don’t have to take to the barricades or storm No 10.

[Jimgym]

Incorrect Jeba. Cameron made it quite plain, and very clear that if Britain voted leave it would also mean leaving the single market. A question I answered in response to you on a different thread. I have added the link here where he specifically says so in a BBC tv interview.“What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market. He said the Brexit campaign had made it clear to voters that voting to leave also meant pulling out of the single market." https://www.politico.eu/article/david-c ... nces-news/

For the reasons I stated above I don´t think my statement was incorrect. What Cameron said is one thing, what was asked in the referendum was another. Plus even if one accepted your point with regard to the common market there would still be the customs union which you didn´t adress. Also, I cannot find any corroboration of your argument provided by the article you linked to. It neither mentions the common market nor the customs union.

I am assuming by common market you mean single market? Cameron made it quite plain that a vote for leave was also to leave the market. I am struggling to see how much clearer he could have made it? I didn't touch on the customs union because in relation to your original question, it wasn't mentioned as part of the in/out referendum. I never made any claim to customs union, which is why you won't find any corroboration in the link I provided. 9edit ) for some reason the link I provided takes you to a different page so I have copied the relevant section and pasted below.
‘I’ll pull UK out of the single market after Brexit’
Leaving the EU would be like planting ‘a bomb’ under the British economy, the prime minister warns.
By TOM MCTAGUE 6/12/16, 11:54 AM CET Updated 6/13/16, 2:35 PM CET
David Cameron confirmed Sunday that he will pull Britain out of the single market if there is a vote to leave the European Union at the upcoming referendum.

The prime minister told the BBC’s Andrew Marr show that it would be impossible to copy the Norwegian model by remaining inside the trading bloc despite being outside the EU because that would mean accepting freedom of movement and trade rules made in Brussels.


He said the Brexit campaign had made it clear to voters that voting to leave also meant pulling out of the single market. The prime minister said he would accept the result as an “instruction” despite warning that leaving would be like planting a “bomb” under the British economy.
https://www.politico.eu/article/david-c ... nces-news/

[Jimgym]

It's interesting to note those who are clamouring for a second referendum, presumably they'd be happy to have the result ignored if it went in their favour? I also note that those complaining about a one offf vote don't mention the one off vote to take Britain into the EU. Double standards?

[Dominic]

I have said repeatedly that, assuming the options were clear in a referendum, the result should be adhered to.

Hopefully sanity will prevail and they will end up doing May's deal. I know that was rejected but if parliament had to vote between that or no deal I bet May's deal would win by a country mile.

[DavidatLWH]

It's interesting to note those who are clamouring for a second referendum, presumably they'd be happy to have the result ignored if it went in their favour? I also note that those complaining about a one offf vote don't mention the one off vote to take Britain into the EU. Double standards?

I entirely agree with the first half of your post.

However, there has never been a vote to go into the EU. The 1975 referendum was for entry into the European Economic Community, a vastly different thing to the current EU.

I voted for entry to the EEC but have felt powerless over the years as the creeping bureaucracy of the EU has taken over the UK. However, despite this I voted to Remain in 2016. Although disappointed with the result of that referendum, the result should be honoured by both the politicians and the electorate. Fat chance.

[Jimgym]

It's interesting to note those who are clamouring for a second referendum, presumably they'd be happy to have the result ignored if it went in their favour? I also note that those complaining about a one offf vote don't mention the one off vote to take Britain into the EU. Double standards?

I entirely agree with the first half of your post.

However, there has never been a vote to go into the EU. The 1975 referendum was for entry into the European Economic Community, a vastly different thing to the current EU.

I voted for entry to the EEC but have felt powerless over the years as the creeping bureaucracy of the EU has taken over the UK. However, despite this I voted to Remain in 2016. Although disappointed with the result of that referendum, the result should be honoured by both the politicians and the electorate. Fat chance.

Thank you for pointing out my error and you are of course correct! It was certainly a very different beast to the one we have now, but as with everything it has evolved.

[Jim B]

It's interesting to note those who are clamouring for a second referendum, presumably they'd be happy to have the result ignored if it went in their favour? I also note that those complaining about a one offf vote don't mention the one off vote to take Britain into the EU. Double standards?

I entirely agree with the first half of your post.

However, there has never been a vote to go into the EU. The 1975 referendum was for entry into the European Economic Community, a vastly different thing to the current EU.

I voted for entry to the EEC but have felt powerless over the years as the creeping bureaucracy of the EU has taken over the UK. However, despite this I voted to Remain in 2016. Although disappointed with the result of that referendum, the result should be honoured by both the politicians and the electorate. Fat chance.

Thank you for pointing out my error and you are of course correct! It was certainly a very different beast to the one we have now, but as with everything it has evolved.

The below link contradicts davidatLWH post as it states the 1975 Referendum was about closer political intergration.

Jim

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36367246

[Jim B]

And how exactly are you going to ensure anyone who signs the petition is over 18, residing in the UK and are/or UK citizens? Voting in a GE, local election, European election have checks in place to at least minimise abuse...these petitions do not.

What other way do we have to protest, should we take to the barricades or storm number 10?
Even if a figure of 10% of signatures are "iffy" it still leaves a figure of nearly one and a half million which are legitimate.
Jim

My point is, there is no control over who signs these petitions, and yes are completely open to fraud, and in regard to this petition, the “attrition” rate could easily be a lot more than 10%. The right to free and peaceful protest is enshrined in British law, so no, you don’t have to take to the barricades or storm No 10.

Peaceful protest is all well and good but when the media like Sky, BBC etc only give minimal coverage of over a million people marching against Brexit or even more recently covered the Hong Kong protests without any mention of quarter of a million people marching through London against Brexit there's something sadly wrong with our democratic system. Same thing happens in Russia, no protests against the establishment are covered on the news channels. Our media is controlled by a small number of media barons and we only see or hear what they want us to.
And even if it's 30% it's still over a million peòple protesting.

Jim

[DavidatLWH]

Jim B: I beg to differ. The precise wording of the (non-binding!) 1975 referendum was:

"The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.
Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)? "


The phrase "Common Market" was in the wording and is not my addition. Prior to the referendum, all that Ted Heath lectured us on was the Common Market, and virtually nothing else.