More lies from Leave.eu

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Jim B
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jim B »

I believe that's how it works in Switzerland according to reports I've read. They have a referendum and follow it up with a second referendum to decide whether to accept or reject what's on offer once the details have been thrashed out.
I'm sure Devil can clarify this.

Jim
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Ree: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jim B »

I like number one myself.

Please be advised there are one or two swear words in the below link.
Jim

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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Devil »

Jim B wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:31 pm I believe that's how it works in Switzerland according to reports I've read. They have a referendum and follow it up with a second referendum to decide whether to accept or reject what's on offer once the details have been thrashed out.
I'm sure Devil can clarify this.

Jim
Not so! A referendum or popular initiative is binding on the vote, according to a majority (for most things) and on a majority of a number of cantons. It is true that the same thing may be re-voted after a number of years if things have changed. See last year's at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Swiss_referendums
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Dominic »

Hmmm, trouble is, this statement is fundamentally flawed (from 2/ Dunning Kruger Effect):

"At absolute best anyone of average intelligence or below is by definition, pretty stupid. "

Why would average intelligence mean you are pretty stupid?

68% of the population are in the "average intelligence" bracket. Only 16% are above it.
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Re: Ree: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by lionelcyprus »

Jim B wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:59 am I like number one myself.

Please be advised there are one or two swear words in the below link.
Jim

Many thanks for this link. A delightful read, although rather overdone in the interpretation I feel.
But the actual cognitive biases are fascinating! You've given me lots of reading to do - I think starting with
Tribal Epistemology
and then the Dunning-Kruger effect.
I remember my old post-grad professor sending me to an Anthropology prof for a term to widen my knowledge. The latter loved this stuff!
Thanks again. :)
Dominus illuminatio mea
Jim B
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jim B »

This is a very interesting article, people who talk about Democracy and Brexit should read it.

Jim


https://www.pressenza.com/2019/04/faceb ... OlAloqG7jo
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jimgward »

Jim, the problem is that people don’t want to know. They are happy to brush over parts of history and accept that things happened but not that it changed anything.

Our media is also owned and driven by too few magnates with far too much power. We see it most clearly in the USA where Fox News and others manipulate a large slice of the uninformed populace.

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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jim B »

JW
Normally one would expect exageration and in some cases lies during an election but I think certain Brexit groups in the referendum took it to a whole new level, even to suggest it was subversion of the democratic process.
There are certain individuals that should be investigated by the authorities to confirm whether they are acting in the best interest of the country or the best interests of another one.
Jim
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

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Anyone who tries to dismiss the insidious nature of the manipulation of people through both the media and social media, is either unaware of the extent, or ignoring for other reasons. Facebook appointed a British politician to take off the heat and he will be gone in a couple of years, if he has a smidgen of a backbone or morals.
The UK should give social media 3 months to properly police it’s sites, or block them. I think it’s that serious.
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jimgym »

Jim B wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:58 am JW
Normally one would expect exageration and in some cases lies during an election but I think certain Brexit groups in the referendum took it to a whole new level, even to suggest it was subversion of the democratic process.
There are certain individuals that should be investigated by the authorities to confirm whether they are acting in the best interest of the country or the best interests of another one.
Jim
I think BOTH sides took it to a whole new level. People will always be manipulated by media and spin, its nothing new and it's not going to change. Voters on both sides would have been swayed, some by false claims of an imminent and devastating recession if we voted leave and others by the often and conveniently misquoted €350m on the side of a bus.

I go on about democracy because I believe in it, irrespective of the result and whether I agree with it. The people voted, if society doesn't want that because they feel the person in the street cannot be trusted to vote the right way then remove the vote, which will obviously change it from a democracy. I didn't vote for Blair, but I accepted the result of the election, and look at the spin doctor he had! It always seems to come back to the fact that Remainers cannot and will not accept that they lost, mainly because of the arrogance of the campaign organisers who seemed to believe they were going to win.
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jim B »

Alan

I believe in Democracy but I don't believe the system we have in the UK is democratic.
I don't think Remain were arrogant, I think they were overconfident which is entirely different and I also don't believe they ran the referendum any differently than if they would an election. Even now the Tories are claiming Armageddon if Corbyn gets in power and suggesting he's going to nationalise everything in sight which is just normal politicking which is what happened from the Remain side during the referendum. Brexit on the hand was using Cambridge Analytica, a data mining consultancy to target specific voters with lies and misleading information and nobody knows where the money came from to pay for it; the powers that be are presently being investigated plus Johnson and Gove have already been found guilty of breaking electoral law.
Like you I accept results of elections even though I think the system is severely flawed and know for many our votes were a total waste of time with the First Past The Post System; the referendum on the other hand was to millions criminally corrupt and that is why people like me will not sit down and just accept the result. Even if both sides were criminally corrupt (which I don't believe Remain were) it doesn't mean two wrongs make a right and we should just accept criminal is alright. If it was re-run honestly and fairly and we lost I would hold my hands up and say Okay, you won and would accept the result.

Jim
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

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The Financial Times is very pro-remain. However this article, although not recent, has some solid stuff in it.
Financial Times Nov 6th 2017. By Tony Barber.
Allegations of Russian interference in the UK’s 2016 Brexit referendum campaign are coming thick and fast. They need to be carefully assessed, but kept in proportion. If British laws were broken in a way that unambiguously involved the Kremlin or its proxies, that would be a matter of concern. However, UK and EU politicians should keep in mind the distinction between illegal activities and the deployment, no matter how ruthless, of political influence. Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s Brexit co-ordinator, tweeted last week: “Putin’s agents tried to influence the US election. We need to know if they interfered in the #Brexit vote too.” But seeking to exert influence over other countries is what governments do, via their embassies and other operations. In this respect the Russians are like the Americans, British, Chinese and everyone else. The question is whether the methods used are illegal or so flagrant as to be unacceptable to a host government. Russia cultivated influential politicians, business figures and lobbyists in the UK’s anti-EU camp. Arron Banks, the chief financial donor to Leave.EU, a pro-Brexit campaign group, spoke last week of “a boozy six-hour lunch with the [Russian] ambassador where we drank the place dry (they have some cracking vodka and brandy)”. Similarly, there is incontrovertible evidence of Russian interference in the US presidential election of 2016 and, to a lesser extent, in this year’s French presidential contest. Hacked emails were released by Julian Assange’s WikiLeaks organisation, and lies and misinformation were peddled on social media. However, Ivan Krastev, a Bulgarian political scientist, made a telling observation last week in The New York Times. “Russian leaders believe that Washington interferes in their domestic politics and that the United States intends to orchestrate a regime change in Moscow. So if they take that as a given, the Kremlin should be able to similarly meddle and to show the world that it has the capabilities and will to do so,” he wrote. During the Brexit campaign, the audience ratings for Russia’s RT television channel were too low to justify complaints that pro-Brexit propaganda addled the brains of British voters. As for social media, consider a House of Commons committee report, “Lessons Learned from the EU Referendum”, published in April. It expressed concern about foreign cyber attacks aimed at influencing public opinion. It contended that “Russia and China use a cognitive approach based on understanding of mass psychology and of how to exploit individuals”. But it did not furnish indisputable proof of such attacks during the Brexit campaign. Some Twitter accounts, suspended by the company last week because of their ties to a Russian “troll farm”, were active both in the US election campaign and during the UK referendum contest. However, only a handful of Twitter accounts were involved — far too few to shape public opinion to any meaningful extent. Facebook says it has not unearthed any co-ordination of advertising expenditure or political misinformation in the Brexit campaign from “known clusters in Russia”. Hard evidence of Russian financial support for the Brexit camp would be a serious matter. But so far none has come to light. Even if it does, it makes little sense to attribute the Brexit victory to Russian dark arts. The result’s origins lie in the miscalculations of David Cameron’s 2010-2016 Conservative government and in longer term British political and social discontent, which culminated in a collective howl of protest on referendum day.
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jim B »

Jon
I think a lot more has come out of the woodwork since that article was written.

Jim
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

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In 2017 we didn’t know for sure. Now we do. You can fiddle with one side as bad as the other but that patently isn’t true at all. Farage says if he had lost he would never have given up. If he evidence of wrongdoing on the remain side he would have never shut up.

The referendum was corrupt to the core.
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

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Jimgward wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:57 pm In 2017 we didn’t know for sure. Now we do. You can fiddle with one side as bad as the other but that patently isn’t true at all. Farage says if he had lost he would never have given up. If he evidence of wrongdoing on the remain side he would have never shut up.

The referendum was corrupt to the core.
You’re only saying that because Remain lost. Had the result been different you’d be very quiet.
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by kingfisher »

Should a gammon actually be caught lurking in the woodpile- or kipper bones, or better still, neanderthal DNA turn up, we would never hear the end of it!
Obviously the remain camp would milk any real evidence for all it’s worth, so I await the prosecutions with interest.
Until then, I would suggest it stays in the “remain wet dreams” file.
Jon
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jim B »

Jon

The Brexit supporting papers and media don't publish articles like this or the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation don't report anything that is detrimental to the cause. You have to ask why it's taken so long for investigations to begin after certain parties were reported to the Police by the Electoral Commission.

Jim

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... al-dropped
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

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Jimgym wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:19 pm
Jimgward wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:57 pm In 2017 we didn’t know for sure. Now we do. You can fiddle with one side as bad as the other but that patently isn’t true at all. Farage says if he had lost he would never have given up. If he evidence of wrongdoing on the remain side he would have never shut up.

The referendum was corrupt to the core.
You’re only saying that because Remain lost. Had the result been different you’d be very quiet.
Well, I wouldn’t be complaining about a corrupt brexit leave campaign to the same levels, but IF remain had been shown to be corrupt, I’d certainly not defend them
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Jim B »

You couldn't make it up. Both main parties lost over fourteen hundred seats between them and UKIP was obliterated at the local elelections, mainly to Remain parties and both Labour and Conservative are claiming it's a protest vote to tell them to get on with Brexit. I would have thought If so, UKIP would have swept the board where they stood for election or at least supporters of Brexit would have abstained rather than vote for Remain Parties but then again I'm not a politician with a politicians logic.

Jim

hqttps://newsthump.com/2019/05/03/tory-strategists-confident-large-gains-for-pro-remain-parties-is-the-people-telling-them-to-get-on-with-brexit/?fbclid=IwAR0nxsZyQg7m79mg61RBBcsFuqvf9tLhMlDGTOIsvr0kQ3qd7r0953vyBao
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Re: More lies from Leave.eu

Post by Dominic »

Yes I found that staggering.
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