Paphos Life

In Westminster, we have general elections, choose a single party and the leader of the party becomes prime minister for a set period, or less, when they may be replaced by someone we didn’t elect or know about.

The PM creates a cabinet to rule the country, on the advice of unelected civil servants. MPs help to create policy based largely on the manifesto set during the election. Or changed by a small group at the party conference each year.

Where is the EU any different? If people mean that all the elected MEPs from EU, vote in leaders and officials and appoint some to run certain affairs I. A democratic way? I.e. no single country controls the EU...

Now that doesn’t ensure that inappropriate leaders don’t rule. Just like Westminster. The EU, by the very beast it is, is full of faults. However, it also has some great aspects, such as the way fair processes lead to regulations to benefit all. All being the majority and usually proposed by the larger nations. The UK laws are influenced by around 60%, by EU regulations, as laws sit outside many and we don’t have to adopt all regs.

“The British government has voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999.

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

This is counting votes in the EU Council of Ministers, which passes most EU laws jointly with the European Parliament.”

Jimgward wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:32 am In Westminster, we have general elections, choose a single party and the leader of the party becomes prime minister for a set period, or less, when they may be replaced by someone we didn’t elect or know about.

The PM creates a cabinet to rule the country, on the advice of unelected civil servants. MPs help to create policy based largely on the manifesto set during the election. Or changed by a small group at the party conference each year.

Where is the EU any different? If people mean that all the elected MEPs from EU, vote in leaders and officials and appoint some to run certain affairs I. A democratic way? I.e. no single country controls the EU...

The difference is that if the prime minister is replaced it is by another 'elected' person. The cabinet in the majority consists of 'elected' MPs, whilst the EU parliament 'appoints' unelected individuals i.e. civil servants to carry out certain duties, whilst in the UK the civil servants only 'advise'. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Having said all that one, might say that in the UK, taking into account the performance of the 'elected' secretaries of state (especially the Home Office), it might have been better to have left thing in the hands of civil servants.

The policies that the main parties follow in the UK (their manifestos etc) are prepared by people who are not necessarily elected MPs. Look at Ken Livingstone for a start.

I refer those of you who believe the UK is run by elected MPs to the scripts of "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister".

As an aside, this came to mind:

Excellent, Josef

Dominic wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:07 pm The policies that the main parties follow in the UK (their manifestos etc) are prepared by people who are not necessarily elected MPs. Look at Ken Livingstone for a start.

Maybe so, but it is 'elected' members that have the responsibility of putting the manifesto policies into action together with consequences with their local party if they fail to do so. If the manifestos fail to attract enough votes in an election then the people who prepared them must examine their relevance to the electorate.

And how is that any different from how EU policies are enacted? The elected members have to approve them, don't they?

josef k wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:20 pm I refer those of you who believe the UK is run by elected MPs to the scripts of "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister".

Ah Paul Eddington, a man who did very little harm...

Dominic wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:18 am And how is that any different from how EU policies are enacted? The elected members have to approve them, don't they?

Not sure of procedures, but do know that the EU civil servants such as Tusk etc. are always in front of the camera and influencing things, whereas UK civil servants are rarely seen.
Another thing I would like to think that I can differentiate between television shows and reality.

Tusk was appointed by the european council, then re-appointed - 2 x 2 1/2 year terms. He can’t be appointed again beyond the end of this term.

The UK was involved in the appointment.

I personally don't hold the UK system of democracy in high regard, most parliamentarians vote the way they are told to. The system allows a party with only 36% of the vote to govern the country. Whips threaten MPs if they don't tow the party line and MPs are being deselected by small association because they don't do what they're told.
Not much different from Russia's version of democracy.
Jim

Jimgward wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:02 pm Tusk was appointed by the european council, then re-appointed - 2 x 2 1/2 year terms. He can’t be appointed again beyond the end of this term.
The UK was involved in the appointment.

'Involved' has a very broad meaning and is a word that a politician would use to mislead people into thinking something else. The fact is that the appointment was remote from the electorate and not really democratic. Look up the word democratic and you will find a reference to 'the people'.

Les Bean,
Sorry to hear of your situation. I thought we were still in the EU until the extended date with a possibility that Brexit may never happen. Is there a possibility that there is another reason for the refusal?
Don't give up hope yet.

I don't think that Les made the post. I think he has just shared it. Forgive me if I am wrong Les.

Varky wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:10 pm 'Involved' has a very broad meaning and is a word that a politician would use to mislead people into thinking something else. The fact is that the appointment was remote from the electorate and not really democratic. Look up the word democratic and you will find a reference to 'the people'.

What kind of argument is that? By that logic it would be undemocratic that e. g. the heads of the police departement, fire brigade etc. aren´t elected directly by the people but appointed by elected politicians?

From the post (shared from FB) by Les Bean it seems like the folk living in France may have been given duff information.... from the source below - just scroll down the list for info by country:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... 7s-eu-exit

For those who are in Cyprus and who will be affected by Brexit, here's the latest information from the GOV UK site:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-cyprus

jeba wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:15 pm

Varky wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:10 pm 'Involved' has a very broad meaning and is a word that a politician would use to mislead people into thinking something else. The fact is that the appointment was remote from the electorate and not really democratic. Look up the word democratic and you will find a reference to 'the people'.

What kind of argument is that? By that logic it would be undemocratic that e. g. the heads of the police departement, fire brigade etc. aren´t elected directly by the people but appointed by elected politicians?

Please don't try to extend the democracy subject to such as police, etc. They are not lawmakers, they enforce the law. Your argument is not relevant.

Varky wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:57 am

jeba wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:15 pm

Varky wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:10 pm 'Involved' has a very broad meaning and is a word that a politician would use to mislead people into thinking something else. The fact is that the appointment was remote from the electorate and not really democratic. Look up the word democratic and you will find a reference to 'the people'.

What kind of argument is that? By that logic it would be undemocratic that e. g. the heads of the police departement, fire brigade etc. aren´t elected directly by the people but appointed by elected politicians?

Please don't try to extend the democracy subject to such as police, etc. They are not lawmakers, they enforce the law. Your argument is not relevant.

Who are you referring to when you talk about unelected politicians in the EU. Tusk? He was elected by the heads of government of all member states. Why is that undemocratic?

Jeba,
Democracy is the government 'by the people'. Not the indirect government of the people by appointed representatives.

Varky wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:39 am Jeba,
Democracy is the government 'by the people'. Not the indirect government of the people by appointed representatives.

So, a monarchy and a House of Lords is also democracy? What about judges who set and rule on laws? Should they be elected?