The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Whatever your political persuasion, defend your corner here. All we ask is that you voice YOUR opinion, rather than just post a link to a half hour youtube video. Also, we want you to win your debate by the strength of your argument. Attacking your opponent weakens your argument.
User avatar
Jimgward
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:14 pm
Location: Lanark
Contact:

The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Jimgward » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:32 am

In Westminster, we have general elections, choose a single party and the leader of the party becomes prime minister for a set period, or less, when they may be replaced by someone we didn’t elect or know about.

The PM creates a cabinet to rule the country, on the advice of unelected civil servants. MPs help to create policy based largely on the manifesto set during the election. Or changed by a small group at the party conference each year.

Where is the EU any different? If people mean that all the elected MEPs from EU, vote in leaders and officials and appoint some to run certain affairs I. A democratic way? I.e. no single country controls the EU...

Now that doesn’t ensure that inappropriate leaders don’t rule. Just like Westminster. The EU, by the very beast it is, is full of faults. However, it also has some great aspects, such as the way fair processes lead to regulations to benefit all. All being the majority and usually proposed by the larger nations. The UK laws are influenced by around 60%, by EU regulations, as laws sit outside many and we don’t have to adopt all regs.

“The British government has voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999.

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

This is counting votes in the EU Council of Ministers, which passes most EU laws jointly with the European Parliament.”

Varky
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:44 am
Location: Anarita

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Varky » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:46 am

Jimgward wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:32 am
In Westminster, we have general elections, choose a single party and the leader of the party becomes prime minister for a set period, or less, when they may be replaced by someone we didn’t elect or know about.

The PM creates a cabinet to rule the country, on the advice of unelected civil servants. MPs help to create policy based largely on the manifesto set during the election. Or changed by a small group at the party conference each year.

Where is the EU any different? If people mean that all the elected MEPs from EU, vote in leaders and officials and appoint some to run certain affairs I. A democratic way? I.e. no single country controls the EU...
The difference is that if the prime minister is replaced it is by another 'elected' person. The cabinet in the majority consists of 'elected' MPs, whilst the EU parliament 'appoints' unelected individuals i.e. civil servants to carry out certain duties, whilst in the UK the civil servants only 'advise'. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Having said all that one, might say that in the UK, taking into account the performance of the 'elected' secretaries of state (especially the Home Office), it might have been better to have left thing in the hands of civil servants.

User avatar
Dominic
Site Admin
Posts: 8015
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:00 pm
Location: Polemi
Contact:

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Dominic » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:07 pm

The policies that the main parties follow in the UK (their manifestos etc) are prepared by people who are not necessarily elected MPs. Look at Ken Livingstone for a start.
Web Designer / Developer. Currently working on Paphos Life.
Living in Polemi, Cyprus with my wife and daughter.

User avatar
josef k
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:15 pm
Location: Emba

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by josef k » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:20 pm

I refer those of you who believe the UK is run by elected MPs to the scripts of "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister".

As an aside, this came to mind:

User avatar
Jimgward
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:14 pm
Location: Lanark
Contact:

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Jimgward » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:05 pm

Excellent, Josef

Varky
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:44 am
Location: Anarita

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Varky » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:44 pm

Dominic wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:07 pm
The policies that the main parties follow in the UK (their manifestos etc) are prepared by people who are not necessarily elected MPs. Look at Ken Livingstone for a start.
Maybe so, but it is 'elected' members that have the responsibility of putting the manifesto policies into action together with consequences with their local party if they fail to do so. If the manifestos fail to attract enough votes in an election then the people who prepared them must examine their relevance to the electorate.

User avatar
Dominic
Site Admin
Posts: 8015
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:00 pm
Location: Polemi
Contact:

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Dominic » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:18 am

And how is that any different from how EU policies are enacted? The elected members have to approve them, don't they?
Web Designer / Developer. Currently working on Paphos Life.
Living in Polemi, Cyprus with my wife and daughter.

User avatar
Dominic
Site Admin
Posts: 8015
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:00 pm
Location: Polemi
Contact:

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Dominic » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:22 am

josef k wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:20 pm
I refer those of you who believe the UK is run by elected MPs to the scripts of "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister".
Ah Paul Eddington, a man who did very little harm...

Web Designer / Developer. Currently working on Paphos Life.
Living in Polemi, Cyprus with my wife and daughter.

Varky
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:44 am
Location: Anarita

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Varky » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:46 pm

Dominic wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:18 am
And how is that any different from how EU policies are enacted? The elected members have to approve them, don't they?
Not sure of procedures, but do know that the EU civil servants such as Tusk etc. are always in front of the camera and influencing things, whereas UK civil servants are rarely seen.
Another thing I would like to think that I can differentiate between television shows and reality.

User avatar
Jimgward
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:14 pm
Location: Lanark
Contact:

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Jimgward » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:02 pm

Tusk was appointed by the european council, then re-appointed - 2 x 2 1/2 year terms. He can’t be appointed again beyond the end of this term.

The UK was involved in the appointment.

Les Bean
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:43 pm

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Les Bean » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:47 pm

Recently posted on facebookDear Friends: so this is what Brexit means. Along with many others living in France, we were advised (it was recommended generally) that because of Brexit we should apply for a Carte de Sejour, which is a permit to stay. Our situation was a bit shaky according to the criteria as our businesses are only just starting (James hasn't launched yet) and we are living off savings. We are about to buy land - planning to go to the Notaire on Thursday - so we can build and start to make our dream real. Well guess what. Our CdS has been REFUSED. We are devasated. We can appeal but what the actual flip, this is supposed to be the EU. This is REAL. For everyone who thinks Brexit is about kicking foreigners out of the UK, well a Brit outside of the UK is a foreigner and it swings both ways. So thanks for flipping nothing all you Leave voters. Our dream is dying before our eyes. Devastated does not come close. I've made this public so you can share. Please do so.

Jim B
Posts: 1137
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:42 am

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Jim B » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:23 pm

I personally don't hold the UK system of democracy in high regard, most parliamentarians vote the way they are told to. The system allows a party with only 36% of the vote to govern the country. Whips threaten MPs if they don't tow the party line and MPs are being deselected by small association because they don't do what they're told.
Not much different from Russia's version of democracy.
Jim

Varky
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:44 am
Location: Anarita

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Varky » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:10 pm

Jimgward wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:02 pm
Tusk was appointed by the european council, then re-appointed - 2 x 2 1/2 year terms. He can’t be appointed again beyond the end of this term.
The UK was involved in the appointment.
'Involved' has a very broad meaning and is a word that a politician would use to mislead people into thinking something else. The fact is that the appointment was remote from the electorate and not really democratic. Look up the word democratic and you will find a reference to 'the people'.

Varky
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:44 am
Location: Anarita

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Varky » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:14 pm

Les Bean,
Sorry to hear of your situation. I thought we were still in the EU until the extended date with a possibility that Brexit may never happen. Is there a possibility that there is another reason for the refusal?
Don't give up hope yet.

User avatar
Dominic
Site Admin
Posts: 8015
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:00 pm
Location: Polemi
Contact:

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Dominic » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:42 pm

I don't think that Les made the post. I think he has just shared it. Forgive me if I am wrong Les.
Web Designer / Developer. Currently working on Paphos Life.
Living in Polemi, Cyprus with my wife and daughter.

Les Bean
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:43 pm

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Les Bean » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:50 pm

Sorry Varky,I didn't separate the first part of my post properly...."Recently posted on Facebook",so its not actually me.Was just a post to show an "expat's" experience in a country other than Cyprus

jeba
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:38 pm

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by jeba » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:15 pm

Varky wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:10 pm
'Involved' has a very broad meaning and is a word that a politician would use to mislead people into thinking something else. The fact is that the appointment was remote from the electorate and not really democratic. Look up the word democratic and you will find a reference to 'the people'.
What kind of argument is that? By that logic it would be undemocratic that e. g. the heads of the police departement, fire brigade etc. aren´t elected directly by the people but appointed by elected politicians?

User avatar
PhotoLady
Posts: 1844
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:53 am
Location: Where the river meets the sea
Contact:

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by PhotoLady » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:29 pm

From the post (shared from FB) by Les Bean it seems like the folk living in France may have been given duff information.... from the source below - just scroll down the list for info by country:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... 7s-eu-exit

For those who are in Cyprus and who will be affected by Brexit, here's the latest information from the GOV UK site:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-cyprus
It is I, LeClerc :lol:

Varky
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:44 am
Location: Anarita

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by Varky » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:57 am

jeba wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:15 pm
Varky wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:10 pm
'Involved' has a very broad meaning and is a word that a politician would use to mislead people into thinking something else. The fact is that the appointment was remote from the electorate and not really democratic. Look up the word democratic and you will find a reference to 'the people'.
What kind of argument is that? By that logic it would be undemocratic that e. g. the heads of the police departement, fire brigade etc. aren´t elected directly by the people but appointed by elected politicians?
Please don't try to extend the democracy subject to such as police, etc. They are not lawmakers, they enforce the law. Your argument is not relevant.

jeba
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:38 pm

Re: The Rubbish about Unelected Leaders in the EU

Post by jeba » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:10 am

Varky wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:57 am
jeba wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:15 pm
Varky wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:10 pm
'Involved' has a very broad meaning and is a word that a politician would use to mislead people into thinking something else. The fact is that the appointment was remote from the electorate and not really democratic. Look up the word democratic and you will find a reference to 'the people'.
What kind of argument is that? By that logic it would be undemocratic that e. g. the heads of the police departement, fire brigade etc. aren´t elected directly by the people but appointed by elected politicians?
Please don't try to extend the democracy subject to such as police, etc. They are not lawmakers, they enforce the law. Your argument is not relevant.
Who are you referring to when you talk about unelected politicians in the EU. Tusk? He was elected by the heads of government of all member states. Why is that undemocratic?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest