and so was Viktor Navorski/Mehran Karimi Nasseri for 18 years.
Shamima Begum
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memory man
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Re: Shamima Begum
I'm aware what a stateless person is Devil, I'm quoting what the International law professors and lawyers were saying on both TV and the radio this morning and all stated that the UK is a signatory to an international agreement that a country cannot make a citizen stateless by revoking their passport. They confirmed only in the situation where a person has dual citizenship can a passport be revoked.
The Attorney General said much the same thing on Saturday so best taking it up with him.
Jim
The Attorney General said much the same thing on Saturday so best taking it up with him.
Jim
Re: Shamima Begum
There is no binding international agreement as you state, nor is the UK signatory to such an agreement. The UK explicitly states that it can remove citizenship, creating stateless conditions, specifically for terror-related crimes. Please read the reference I quoted.
The Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act of 2002 discouraged stateless conditions, but did not forbid them. The later Immigration Act of 2014 extends the powers of the Home Secretary to declare certain terrorism suspects stateless.
I don't want to introduce a very controversial red herring, but could the current Home Secretary, being Muslim, feel able to implement the Act??? I do not think he would in Shamima's case as she was non-combatant.
The Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act of 2002 discouraged stateless conditions, but did not forbid them. The later Immigration Act of 2014 extends the powers of the Home Secretary to declare certain terrorism suspects stateless.
I don't want to introduce a very controversial red herring, but could the current Home Secretary, being Muslim, feel able to implement the Act??? I do not think he would in Shamima's case as she was non-combatant.
Re: Shamima Begum
Devil
You say she was non-combatant, how do we know that ?
If her husband is alive, as has been implied on another thread, then she would not be stateless, she would entitled to join her husband with his child, in Holland. We have already allowed far too many terrorists to return to the UK, to our cost, OMG if we ever needed a strong government it's now, but I won't hold my breath.
Jackie
You say she was non-combatant, how do we know that ?
If her husband is alive, as has been implied on another thread, then she would not be stateless, she would entitled to join her husband with his child, in Holland. We have already allowed far too many terrorists to return to the UK, to our cost, OMG if we ever needed a strong government it's now, but I won't hold my breath.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Shamima Begum
Would the Netherlands authorities accept the 'marriage' as legal, including change of nationality??? We are in the land of speculation, now.
Re: Shamima Begum
Why is such a fuss been made about Begum?
About 400 people (presumably mainly male fighters) who are British passport holders have returned from Syria to the UK already, of which some 10% have been prosecuted. The rest it appears are wandering around free and unsupervised.
Whilst she has stuck her head above the parapet and spoken out which of course has done her no favours, what would have been said if she just returned silently?
So is she been made into a martyr for speaking out about her beliefs?
About 400 people (presumably mainly male fighters) who are British passport holders have returned from Syria to the UK already, of which some 10% have been prosecuted. The rest it appears are wandering around free and unsupervised.
Whilst she has stuck her head above the parapet and spoken out which of course has done her no favours, what would have been said if she just returned silently?
So is she been made into a martyr for speaking out about her beliefs?
Re: Shamima Begum
She wouldn't be the first.
The point it that non of them should ever be allowed back into Britain, including her.
The point it that non of them should ever be allowed back into Britain, including her.
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Shamima Begum
Has Shamima actually had a baby?
Does she look like she has just given birth whilst in a refugee camp where one assumes that health facilities are not good?
She looks remarkably healthy and carrying some extra weight for one in such a difficult position.
Does she look tired from child birth?
Has anyone actually seen this baby? I have seen her minder holding someone wrapped in rags but no sound or movement comes from it.
Most mothers are only to proud to show off their newborn to all especially one in her position where one presumes she is trying for the sympathy vote.
Also as such a strict and devout Muslim why does she remove her full face veil for TV interviews and then puts it back on straight after?
Does she look like she has just given birth whilst in a refugee camp where one assumes that health facilities are not good?
She looks remarkably healthy and carrying some extra weight for one in such a difficult position.
Does she look tired from child birth?
Has anyone actually seen this baby? I have seen her minder holding someone wrapped in rags but no sound or movement comes from it.
Most mothers are only to proud to show off their newborn to all especially one in her position where one presumes she is trying for the sympathy vote.
Also as such a strict and devout Muslim why does she remove her full face veil for TV interviews and then puts it back on straight after?
Re: Shamima Begum
People are getting in a tizzy over this girl - nobody wants her back in the UK, but it concerns me much more, that the men who fought, who are weapon and explosive trained, are coming back with nothing said. We have no way of dealing with it all.
However, it is a problem for the UK, to take responsibility for it's citizens. Why should we expect some other country to be handed them? Frankly, I've seen some preposterous suggestions about killing her, her baby and all the others - no trial, no suggestion of understanding how to prevent this kind of thing happening again. Some posts on here verge on the ridiculous.
We have to learn how to stop the radicalisation. France does not put up with foreign Imams who preach hatred - it kicks them out - no questions asked. We allow ones like Abu Hamza to exhaust our legal system. Wars are being fought now at cyber and social levels. We don't need the military in it's previous forms. We need GCHQ and other intelligence, backed by laws that act quickly.
Why have we allowed Facebook and others to be largely un-policed? We should have acted 10- years ago in putting controls in place. That's not a form of suppressing free speech, it's protection of society and individuals. Why does Snapchat ban nipples (only female ones) but allows self-harm photos and videos?
However, it is a problem for the UK, to take responsibility for it's citizens. Why should we expect some other country to be handed them? Frankly, I've seen some preposterous suggestions about killing her, her baby and all the others - no trial, no suggestion of understanding how to prevent this kind of thing happening again. Some posts on here verge on the ridiculous.
We have to learn how to stop the radicalisation. France does not put up with foreign Imams who preach hatred - it kicks them out - no questions asked. We allow ones like Abu Hamza to exhaust our legal system. Wars are being fought now at cyber and social levels. We don't need the military in it's previous forms. We need GCHQ and other intelligence, backed by laws that act quickly.
Why have we allowed Facebook and others to be largely un-policed? We should have acted 10- years ago in putting controls in place. That's not a form of suppressing free speech, it's protection of society and individuals. Why does Snapchat ban nipples (only female ones) but allows self-harm photos and videos?
Last edited by Jimgward on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Shamima Begum
Jimgw
I agree that some suggestions are extreme, And yes we have to find a way to stop terrorists from returning to the UK, I include their spouses and offspring, but no reasonable party that we are able to vote for will do this, not even a suggestion that they might. Can they not see that Joe public has become frustrated and angry that this is happening over and over again !
Social media seems to be the only way that the average Brit can make their voices heard, someone has to listen before more poor innocent souls are killed and maimed on our own streets yet again, including our children. If someone doesn't act soon, there will be unrest in the country, which would not be good for any of us.
I have signed the petition in the hope that the government will take note, but as I said before, I won't hold my breath.
Jackie
I agree that some suggestions are extreme, And yes we have to find a way to stop terrorists from returning to the UK, I include their spouses and offspring, but no reasonable party that we are able to vote for will do this, not even a suggestion that they might. Can they not see that Joe public has become frustrated and angry that this is happening over and over again !
Social media seems to be the only way that the average Brit can make their voices heard, someone has to listen before more poor innocent souls are killed and maimed on our own streets yet again, including our children. If someone doesn't act soon, there will be unrest in the country, which would not be good for any of us.
I have signed the petition in the hope that the government will take note, but as I said before, I won't hold my breath.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Shamima Begum
This BBC report is quite long, but well worth the read. It is the story of a Welsh mother who found Islam in her life, married an Afghan and then her teenage son joined Isis and was killed. It is a moving and disturbing story. It gives a more full understanding of that needs to happen.
Locking up everyone and trying to keep them in detention abroad is not possible. I can only guess at the politics of a party that would support your view, Jackie, but it would be so extreme right as to make UKIP seem normal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... cec7824254
Locking up everyone and trying to keep them in detention abroad is not possible. I can only guess at the politics of a party that would support your view, Jackie, but it would be so extreme right as to make UKIP seem normal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... cec7824254
Re: Shamima Begum
Jim
You truly believe that stopping terrorists and their families from re-entering Britain is extreme, really ? In that case I wonder where your loyalties lie.
If two of your granddaughters had attended the Manchester concert, you may think differently.
Jackie
You truly believe that stopping terrorists and their families from re-entering Britain is extreme, really ? In that case I wonder where your loyalties lie.
If two of your granddaughters had attended the Manchester concert, you may think differently.
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Shamima Begum
Jackie, I said nobody wants her back in the UK...... I made sure that was plain. i.e. I do not, under any normal circumstance, want her in the UK, nor any other Daesh follower - and we should stop calling them ISIS. She and her other Daesh followers, should be detailed in some faraway camp, given basic food and water and left to live a life in confinement..... However, we would create new indoctrinated followers of these extreme ideals. It would create another 'crusade' and we have to avoid that.
However, as a realist, she is a UK citizen and our worldly responsibility is to deal with our own. We cannot get away from that. It's not ideal, in fact, far from it, but we are not innocent as a nation in allowing the indoctrination and subsequent issues in the middle-east.
Extreme is asking for drones to be sent into a detention camp, to kill her.....
Which country should take responsibility? Should we, as some idiot on LBS this morning, take control of 5000 acres of Syria or Iraq and create a detention camp like Guantanamo? We supported anti-Syrian forces which enabled Daesh freedom to grow. We failed to stop Turkey supporting Daesh and much more, like most other nations involved there, so the entire problem in Iraq and Syria had UK and other involvement that has created a climate to allow Daesh to flourish. We backed the wrong side many times.
Blair and Bush created a lot of the problems that have borne fruit. The Muslim leaders of this country and others, but most especially the middle-eastern countries like Saudi, UAE and others, have to be held to account for not speaking out even more and for not revealing elements within their communities to authorities. But money drives everything and we won't even condemn Saudi Arabia for terrible support of all this. 100% they funded Daesh and have tried to stir problems in Iraq and Iran. They hate us as non-believers but hate other elements of Islam even more.
However, as a realist, she is a UK citizen and our worldly responsibility is to deal with our own. We cannot get away from that. It's not ideal, in fact, far from it, but we are not innocent as a nation in allowing the indoctrination and subsequent issues in the middle-east.
Extreme is asking for drones to be sent into a detention camp, to kill her.....
Which country should take responsibility? Should we, as some idiot on LBS this morning, take control of 5000 acres of Syria or Iraq and create a detention camp like Guantanamo? We supported anti-Syrian forces which enabled Daesh freedom to grow. We failed to stop Turkey supporting Daesh and much more, like most other nations involved there, so the entire problem in Iraq and Syria had UK and other involvement that has created a climate to allow Daesh to flourish. We backed the wrong side many times.
Blair and Bush created a lot of the problems that have borne fruit. The Muslim leaders of this country and others, but most especially the middle-eastern countries like Saudi, UAE and others, have to be held to account for not speaking out even more and for not revealing elements within their communities to authorities. But money drives everything and we won't even condemn Saudi Arabia for terrible support of all this. 100% they funded Daesh and have tried to stir problems in Iraq and Iran. They hate us as non-believers but hate other elements of Islam even more.
Re: Shamima Begum
Jim
You said that any party that would support my view would be so extreme right that it would make UKIP appear normal, what part of my view are you referring to ?
Jackie
You said that any party that would support my view would be so extreme right that it would make UKIP appear normal, what part of my view are you referring to ?
Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Re: Shamima Begum
Just heard on the ITV news that we are revoking her UK citizenship, more to follow!!
Shane
Shane
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PhotoLady
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Re: Shamima Begum
Waiting for further updates on it...
"IS teen to lose UK citizenship, says family"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47299907
"IS teen to lose UK citizenship, says family"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47299907
"Have Camera, Will Travel"
Re: Shamima Begum
Not your view per se - but a reference to a party that would come to the polls with a manifesto like that
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kingfisher
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Re: Shamima Begum
Nicked this off facebook......
Making a mistake at fifteen is being caught smoking by your dad,
not joining F******** Isis.
Making a mistake at fifteen is being caught smoking by your dad,
not joining F******** Isis.
